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saveoursubways (SOS)

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We'll need a North-South LRT in the west end to mirror Don Mills. No? Right now we've still got Jane on the map. And as others have suggested, Weston's got higher ridership today. So that's why I figured that corridor.

Keith, Weston is way too narrow. I don't even know how you're justifying such a ROW? There's nothing significant along Weston except a GO Station and an adjacent 'downtown' that stretches for all of four blocks. The 165/89 split should tell you there's little demand here for a through long-hauler route. I would like to see better transit along Albion (the 73 bus service is atrocious!) but again, another corridor that doesn't pick up in density til Islington. What I suggested in the SOS forum as a better solution for serving Albion-Tinseltown-Beaumonde Hts, is to have a Highway 27 BRT loop southbound along Albion, northbound along Islington, then westbound back along Finch.

Highway 27 has so much going for it as a priority corridor. Humber College (both campuses via Lakeshore), Long Branch GO, Sherway Gdns, Cloverdale Mall, Vahalla Business Park, Etobicoke Civic Ctr, Toronto Congress Ctr and a intermodal transfer to the airport, branched service via the F.H.C into Etobicoke North GO and to Rexdale Mall, Woodbine Racetrack, Woodbine Centre, Etobicoke Hospital, and possibly direct routing into Westwood. How does Weston Rd or any other arterial in the west end stack up to that?

I'd downgrade Jane to BRT, but include a Highway 27 BRT as well.
 
A BRT network will always deliver less ridership than an LRT network. Rail bias is a real thing. Whether it matters enough to justify trade-offs regarding cost & expandability is another matter.
 
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It won't change things massively; but I think the BRT mey be too low. Are there estimates what BRT has cost elsewhere? The Mississauga design, and Ottawa?

I know the York BRT was cheap, but it was a fairly unique situation.

We aren't talking full blown BRT a la Ottawa Transitway. We are talking about curbside bus lanes or centre of the street ROWs. I honestly think even 10 million per km is too much for it. It could probably be done with half that. Both Kingston and Ellesmere are wide enough so that little to no expropriation will be needed.
 
We aren't talking full blown BRT a la Ottawa Transitway. We are talking about curbside bus lanes or centre of the street ROWs. I honestly think even 10 million per km is too much for it. It could probably be done with half that. Both Kingston and Ellesmere are wide enough so that little to no expropriation will be needed.

The international standard is only $6 million/km. The only complications arise from grade-separating parts of the right-of-way. For instance, underpasses and elevated guideways.
 
See my post in the group for a proposed subway/bus lanes plan. Let me know what you guys think.
 
Personally I'd investigate a Dufferin LRT from Wilson to the Ex, a Wilson LRT that would either continue NW along Albion or head North on Jane/Keele, and (maybe) Jane BRT. Instead of just the Jane LRT.
 
A BRT network will always deliver less ridership than an LRT network. Rail bias is a real thing. Whether it matters enough to justify trade-offs regarding cost & expandability is another matter.
Rail bias, and it's actually true that LRT has a much higher capacity than BRT, and also is a lot less expensive to operate. I agree that LRT has it's place; Finch, Queen and Islington are great routes for LRT, but It's just not a one-size fits all solution. Neither is BRT, and subway definitely isn't. If we want to build a good network, we need to figure out the right routes for each mode, and how each line will contribute to the network.
 
The international standard is only $6 million/km. The only complications arise from grade-separating parts of the right-of-way. For instance, underpasses and elevated guideways.
True ... we'll have to see what the Kingston Road BRT cost is ... they are supposed to present cost estimates in the next open house ... in early 2010.

But if it is so cheap, why defer it to the end of the program in a quarter-century or so? Given it's got a much bigger bang for the buck, wouldn't you want to do that early?
 
a brt network will always deliver less ridership than an lrt network. Rail bias is a real thing. Whether it matters enough to justify trade-offs regarding cost & expandability is another matter.
rail bias, and it's actually true that lrt has a much higher capacity than brt, and also is a lot less expensive to operate. I agree that lrt has it's place; finch, queen and islington are great routes for lrt, but it's just not a one-size fits all solution. Neither is brt, and subway definitely isn't. If we want to build a good network, we need to figure out the right routes for each mode, and how each line will contribute to the network.

It is a common misconception that a light rail system would attract more riders than BRT. The concept of bus rapid transit is not well understood in North America, as there are only a few systems currently in operation. In reality, BRT would be designed more like a light rail than a standard bus system, with features like dedicated lanes, signal priority, pre-pay boarding, elevated station platforms, and efficient and comfortable vehicles that make it much more efficient and appealing than a traditional bus service. BRT would also offer travel times that are competitive with light rail. With a well-designed, well-operated, and well-advertised BRT in place, there is good reason to believe that many people would use and appreciate the system.

One cannot assume that transit-oriented development would be sparked by light rail but not BRT. For example, a recent study by the American Public Transportation Association looking at this issue considers that both rail and BRT can lead to significant positive land use changes. Moreover, developers can benefit from the shorter implementation time that BRT projects bring as compared to LRT. Also, regarding permanence, this is a somewhat relative concept. For example, there were thousands of miles of tram networks in North America by 1940; much of this system was dismantled before 1970 with the rise of the automobile and suburbia. The forces behind development are not limited to the technology of transit vehicles, but also depend on factors such as accessibility, enabling policies, and background economics.

Finally, I critically challenge the notion that LRT has that much higher carrying capacity and less operating costs than BRT. In the case of Transit City it is not at all certain that there would be a large enough increase in ridership to justify the significantly higher cost of light rail. For example, if we take just TTC’s ridership estimates for the SRT corridor, “Medium Investment†LRT and BRT alternatives would see a projection of 160,000 and 128,000 riders per day, respectively. That’s only about 20% more riders for light rail, yet the projected capital cost of the light rail system is several times more than that of BRT ($1.2 billion vs. $208 million), and also includes higher annual operation and maintenance costs. Coupled vehicles and innovations in clean energy would mean fewer drivers per route and less fuel consumption, same criteria being used to prop up LRTs.
 
While all of that is possible with a well designed BRT, the one thing that a BRT cannot do which an LRT or any rail vehicle can do is provide riders with a smooth and bump-free ride.

Our roads are in terrible shape, and with heavy bus routes especially so. The curb lanes get destroyed with heavy bus usage and all those misplaced sewer grates. Ever ride the 39 or 53? They are express, but what a freaking bumpy ride.

I think the main attraction to rail is that it is smooth, and the fact that seeing rail signifies that the infrastructure is permanent.

A smooth ride is what does it for most people. Also, I think the operating costs of LRT are a lot lower than BRT due to almost double the lifespan of a vehicle. LRT vehicles can last over 30-40 years, while buses barely last 20, and break down more often.

There is more capital costs up front for sure, but LRT can be upgraded to have more capacity by chaining trains together to make longer vehicles. This is something that can't really be done with buses. I've never seen anything longer than an articulated bus, while you can easily attach 2-3 trains together to make a set.

LRT has more upfront cost, but over the long term as demand increases, it is better able to cope without much changes to the rail infrastructure.
 
And from that perspective, nothing beats more subways. Our plan leaves the bulk of the population within a 10 minute bus ride of a subway station. It may even be less if BRT travel is involved. I'd say people are willing to suffer a bus for a few minutes to get to the subway. How many people are really going to change travel patterns to get to a LRT?

For example, if you are at Neilson and Finch but want to head to Seneca at Don Mills and Finch, would you go down Neilson to transfer to the LRT and then transfer again at Don Mills to the Finch LRT? Even if Metrolinx takes away the transfer at Don Mills, it's still a pain in the six. And it still will not be faster than a straight ride on Finch. And if there's a BRT on Finch? It's no contest.
 
I want some feedback on the approach we're taking. We set out to create a subway heavy alternative to Transit City. And that has led us to deploy some BRT in our proposal. Is that a sound approach? Or should we take the Westonite approach and only advocate for changes to the subway lines in Scarborough (and maybe leave the rest of TC intact)? Which approach offers better credibility? And which one is more likely to yield success?
 
It should consider expanding the subway in other parts of the city, like Eglinton to eventually go to the airport. Why would most Torontonians support a plan than only brings subways to Scarborough? That would really lower credibility. Westonites had clear grievances and could speak with a stronger voice, but what grievances do you have? That LRT would unnecessarily lower the standard of life in Scarborough?

And maybe also have a side of SOS that actually focuses on the current subway with its screeching brakes, station repairs that drag on and on even for basic items, and dirty trains in the evenings.
 
Our latest iteration has a full Eglinton subway (airport to Kingston Rd), the DRL till Eglinton, Sheppard East and West extensions, and Bloor-Danforth east and west extensions. And of course, the two planned YUS extensions. We have a city wide BRT network that compliments the subway plan. And we're building a phasing plan and mapping out the costs per phase.
 
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