saveoursubways (SOS)

[kEiThZ]

The goal in Phase I is to spend 12-15 billion or as close to that range as possible, because that's how much TC costs. As for the two subways in Scarborough that arises from the need to target two TC projects: the SRT and the SELRT. Lastly the Neilson BRT on Military Trail....was a mistake, will be fixed. Same for the approach to Main.

 

[Rainforest]

BRT on Jane could work quite well, because it allows for a ROW where it's possible (Steeles-Eglinton,) and then regular bus service on the rest. If there's an Eglinton subway to Jane, the majority of riders can be dumped there, while the ones that need to get to Jane station can just stay on the bus, perhaps with signal priority or Bus lanes where possible.

I actually do believe that there is no inherent demand for folk at Jane-Finch to want to necessarily go to Bloor West Village. In that light I would split transit service along Jane Street at Eglinton, leaving the 35 local bus in place for southward trips meanwhile northwards get the BRT. This brings the total number of kilometres down to 10 and at roughly $10 million/km for BRT ROW construction and vehicles, a total of $100 million dollars is all that's required here (the most costly part i.e. access into Mt Dennis Stn would be attributed to Eglinton subway's budget).

Agree that it makes sense to build Jane rapid transit north of Eglinton only (assuming that Eglinton gets subway or LRT). Most of density is north of Eglinton. My previous comment was based on the map that had Jane BRT going all the way to the Lake.

Jane BRT north of Eglinton deserves a place in the proposal, although there will be some width issues (the light rail EA found that most of Jane between Wilson and Eglinton is not wide enough for 6 lanes).

Anyone seeing the light yet? BRT's more affordable than LRT, offers similar environmental and operational benefits with same carrying capacities if routed in bi-articulates, but takes far less time to build, ...

Depends on the route.

 

[Rainforest]

The goal in Phase I is to spend 12-15 billion or as close to that range as possible, because that's how much TC costs. As for the two subways in Scarborough that arises from the need to target two TC projects: the SRT and the SELRT. Lastly the Neilson BRT on Military Trail....was a mistake, will be fixed. Same for the approach to Main.

Uhm ... 12-15 billion may be what all of TC would cost if all of it would be built. But that is far from being warranted, and some of TC proposals might never get implemented.

The already funded portion is about 8 billion.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ That's easily enough for a Jane-Don Mills Eglinton Subway, Sheppard subway extension to STC and Finch West LRT.

 

[Rainforest]

To service the airport in Phase I, we intended for travellers to use Blue 22 or GO. We made sure for Eglinton to connect to that line. That was the line of thought. Is it absolutely vital to have a subway connection to the airport vs. deploying the dollars to develop subways elsewhere early on?

IMO, Airport connection is the only justification for Eglinton subway.

If the subway runs just Jane to Don Mills, it has no operational advantages over Crosstown LRT. It won't be any faster than LRT, since that portion of LRT would be tunneled anyway. Higher capacity of the subway will not matter, since the ridership level of the short subway will not be greater than what LRT can handle. On the other hand, short subway would impose unnecessary transfers at Jane and Don Mills.

Connection to GO Pearson would help, but unfortunately GO Pearson does not look like near future. Blue 22 would be too expensive for many non-business travelers (and it is likely that Blue 22 consortium will seek to prevent or delay any parallel GO service through some clauses in their contract).

The only advantage of Jane - Don Mills subway would be that it is easy to expand further. But given the uncertain state of transit capital funding, this advantage won't be very appealing to decision-makers.

In contrast, if the Eglinton subway connects to the Airport, Spadina subway, and Yonge subway from the onset, it will be able to capture a significant portion of Airport trips: from downtown, York U, parts of North York via Spadina line; any locations near Yonge; buses running to Yonge. The artificial transfer at Don Mills would still be a nuisance, but at least it is one transfer not two.

 

[Rainforest]

^^ That's easily enough for a Jane-Don Mills Eglinton Subway, Sheppard subway extension to STC and Finch West LRT.

Right; but don't forget the Kennedy - STC corridor. The RT Mark-I trains go out of service around 2015 and some kind of rail-based replacement is a must. The 8 billion I mentioned, include about 1.5 billion for SRT upgrade.

 

[kEiThZ]

Our hand has been forced in Scarborough because of the SELRT. We have to offer the Sheppard subway as an alternative. And the Bloor-Danforth extension is a must because of the state of the SRT. This is why Scarborough has to get the two subways in the first phase. The others can be moved around on the schedule.

 

[kEiThZ]

What I am wondering is what's more likely to generate ridership? DRL West or Eglinton West?

 

[gweed123]

^^ That's easily enough for a Jane-Don Mills Eglinton Subway, Sheppard subway extension to STC and Finch West LRT.

Why do LRT along Finch West when you can do BRT along the entire corridor?

And with regards to the Jane BRT going to the lake, that was a remenant from an older version of the plan when Jane was still going to be an LRT... I thought it made more sense, rather than building the entire WWLRT, just build the Etobicoke part and have it connect to the B-D subway at Jane. BRT makes somewhat less sense, but it still does make sense. South Etobicoke to the B-D subway is still a huge trip generator for the area.

 

[gweed123]

What I am wondering is what's more likely to generate ridership? DRL West or Eglinton West?

My main reasoning for doing the DRL from Eglinton to Eglinton in 1 shot is the Georgetown corridor reconstruction. The entire thing is being revamped anyways, why not tag the DRL onto that for a significantly lower cost than doing it later? Is it not cheaper to just design the corridor once, get the rails laid in the right spot the first time, instead of going back 20 years later and having to rip it all up again?

 

[GraphicMatt]

You should be careful not to claim that BRT is some magic bullet for every corridor while at the same time deriding so-called "LRTistas" who think LRT is the solution for all things. Both have their advantages an disadvantages but bus lanes everywhere certainly aren't going to force significant modal shift.

 

[Second_in_pie]

My main reasoning for doing the DRL from Eglinton to Eglinton in 1 shot is the Georgetown corridor reconstruction. The entire thing is being revamped anyways, why not tag the DRL onto that for a significantly lower cost than doing it later? Is it not cheaper to just design the corridor once, get the rails laid in the right spot the first time, instead of going back 20 years later and having to rip it all up again?

Because there might never be demand for it?

The Georgetown line would get a stop at Eglinton and the Junction. Those are the only major trip generators or routes that aren't served by rapid transit, and they're planned to get service a la georgetown corridor. I see absolutely no reason to put a subway there, duplicating the exact same service that the Go train provides.

I think Eglinton West is a much, much better investment than DRL West. DRL west already has the georgetown corridor, and Eglinton west has plenty of room for new development, as well as a direct route to the airport from the east and the YUS.

 

[gweed123]

You should be careful not to claim that BRT is some magic bullet for every corridor while at the same time deriding so-called "LRTistas" who think LRT is the solution for all things. Both have their advantages an disadvantages but bus lanes everywhere certainly aren't going to force significant modal shift.

I'm not deriding LRT, I'm simply making the point that, for the same cost as the Finch West LRT, a BRT line can be built along the entire corridor.

The Move Toronto plan is based on the judgement that, although LRT does offer slightly better performance, that it is better to have slightly-inferior to LRT transit across the majority of the city, than to have LRT lines on a few select corridors. A lot of these suburban corridors would do just fine with curbside cutouts, cue jump lanes, and signal priority, all of which can be built for a fraction of the cost of dedicated-lane LRT. There is also nothing to preclude these corridors from being upgraded to LRT in the future if demand suggests it. The work at the intersections will already be completed (right ROW width anyway), so it will reduce the cost of building LRT if it is found to be warranted.

I just think it's a better bang for the buck to get an entire network of BRT implemented in 5 or so years, than it is to wait 5 years before the first of a select few LRT lines come online. The BRT in this plan is being used in a way that it serves as a capitally inexpensive, quick trip rapid transit option to reach the subway network (an expanded subway network, which TC does not provide).

 

[kEiThZ]

How much savings can be had by piggybacking subway construction onto the Georgetown work? I would think anything short of allowing cut-and-cover is unlikely to generate substantial savings. In this case that's not going to happen. So how much can be saved?

 

[EnviroTO]

If the entire Eglinton line was built from the airport all the way to Kennedy the station with the most transfers would be Yonge-Eglinton. Because this is where the greatest number of people would transfer anyway, this is where a switch in modes should occur. Putting in subway for half the journey to the airport will force far more people to transfer, often with luggage, at more points in their journey.

By stopping the DRL at Dundas West, the Eglinton subway at Yonge and focusing on Eglinton West to the airport the plan will have provided service to more areas which means more areas to gather ridership from. There is some demand for a subway at Eglinton and Weston, and greater demand at Eglinton and Don Mills... but how can that demand be twice the level of the airport and Mississauga? Both locations currently have no subways so where is the ridership to fill two subways going to immediately come from? I suggest that people who think Eglinton and Weston requires two subways at this point go on Google Maps and Bing Maps to check the area out and then go to the airport.