Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[gweed123]

Some of the older highways definitely didn't make sense by the 1990s. There wasn't really a need to keep 500-series secondary highways in Renfrew, Lanark, and Peterborough Counties on the books where there was a county government able to take them on. Short intramunicipal connectors like Highway 88 in Bradford weren't really necessary either. Same with Highway 11 south of Barrie, or Highway 93 south of Highway 400.

But Highway 9 was the opposite extreme, and the worst of a long list of highways (I'd add other long rural highways, like 86 or the south part of Highway 28) that never should have been downloaded.

I agree with the 500-series highways, but I don't know about highways like 11 and 8. If someone wants to take a scenic route, it's nice to have consistent signage along the route.

There's a reason why the US Highway system has remained largely intact despite many of the routes being supplanted in importance by an adjacent Interstate. If you want to drive around a town, take the interstate. If you want to drive through the town, take the US Highway.

Largely because when you turn ownership over to somebody else, they get to call it whatever they like. It's not just maintenance. Some jurisdictions did manage to keep the county designation consistent with the previous highway, some didn't even try and some couldn't because the number was taken. Simcoe couldn't designate former Highway 11 as County Rd. 11 because the number was already in use (Old Barrie Rd.) but they did manage to keep several consistent.

But my point is I don't know why maintaining the current number and signage wasn't made a condition of the download. Municipalities are creatures of the Province, so I would think the Province could have mandated that signage remain consistent (including continuing to use the King's Highway shields). Just look at the US. The states own the vast majority of the Interstate and US Highway networks, but AASHTO controls the numbering and signage.

 

[Steve X]

I agree with the 500-series highways, but I don't know about highways like 11 and 8. If someone wants to take a scenic route, it's nice to have consistent signage along the route.

There's a reason why the US Highway system has remained largely intact despite many of the routes being supplanted in importance by an adjacent Interstate. If you want to drive around a town, take the interstate. If you want to drive through the town, take the US Highway.



But my point is I don't know why maintaining the current number and signage wasn't made a condition of the download. Municipalities are creatures of the Province, so I would think the Province could have mandated that signage remain consistent (including continuing to use the King's Highway shields). Just look at the US. The states own the vast majority of the Interstate and US Highway networks, but AASHTO controls the numbering and signage.

Coming from a government that thinks spending money to fill an already excavated subway tunnel and selling the 407 are great ideas, why would they even care about the signages on these "not my problem anymore" roads.

 

[jamincan]

But my point is I don't know why maintaining the current number and signage wasn't made a condition of the download. Municipalities are creatures of the Province, so I would think the Province could have mandated that signage remain consistent (including continuing to use the King's Highway shields). Just look at the US. The states own the vast majority of the Interstate and US Highway networks, but AASHTO controls the numbering and signage.

That would be sensible and entirely possible, but it would have required political will and leadership from the governing Conservatives at the time and do you really think they cared enough about a logical highway numbering system in the province?

 

[lenaitch]

I agree with the 500-series highways, but I don't know about highways like 11 and 8. If someone wants to take a scenic route, it's nice to have consistent signage along the route.

There's a reason why the US Highway system has remained largely intact despite many of the routes being supplanted in importance by an adjacent Interstate. If you want to drive around a town, take the interstate. If you want to drive through the town, take the US Highway.



But my point is I don't know why maintaining the current number and signage wasn't made a condition of the download. Municipalities are creatures of the Province, so I would think the Province could have mandated that signage remain consistent (including continuing to use the King's Highway shields). Just look at the US. The states own the vast majority of the Interstate and US Highway networks, but AASHTO controls the numbering and signage.

The jurisdictional and funding structures in the US are likely different enough to limit direct comparison.

I suppose they could have mandated that these routes retain their King's Highway status, but signage implies ownership which implies responsibility which implies liability. The Province wished to wash their hands of these routes so I'm not sure why they would care. Meh, most folks these days blindly follow their GPS anyway if they lack local knowledge.

The whole municipal structure system in Ontario strikes me as a bit of a mess anyway but life does carry on.

 

[ShonTron]

The jurisdictional and funding structures in the US are likely different enough to limit direct comparison.

I suppose they could have mandated that these routes retain their King's Highway status, but signage implies ownership which implies responsibility which implies liability. The Province wished to wash their hands of these routes so I'm not sure why they would care. Meh, most folks these days blindly follow their GPS anyway if they lack local knowledge.

The whole municipal structure system in Ontario strikes me as a bit of a mess anyway but life does carry on.

A simple "maintained by ______" tab at the bottom could have been one idea, or creating a slightly different shield for downloaded and connecting link highways should have been done. But like much of Harris' governance, it was a slash first, learn the consequences later mentality.

 

[Allandale25]

Meanwhile...

Caledon council hears options for GTA West Corridor

Caledon to chose preferred option for GTA West Transportation Corridor.

www.caledonenterprise.com

 

[gweed123]

Coming from a government that thinks spending money to fill an already excavated subway tunnel and selling the 407 are great ideas, why would they even care about the signages on these "not my problem anymore" roads.

That would be sensible and entirely possible, but it would have required political will and leadership from the governing Conservatives at the time and do you really think they cared enough about a logical highway numbering system in the province?

Very good points. As with many decisions by the Harris government, their "give-a-damn" meter on this issue was pretty low.

The jurisdictional and funding structures in the US are likely different enough to limit direct comparison.

I suppose they could have mandated that these routes retain their King's Highway status, but signage implies ownership which implies responsibility which implies liability. The Province wished to wash their hands of these routes so I'm not sure why they would care. Meh, most folks these days blindly follow their GPS anyway if they lack local knowledge.

The whole municipal structure system in Ontario strikes me as a bit of a mess anyway but life does carry on.

I agree it's not a direct comparison. For one, it's Federal to State in the US, whereas in Canada it would be Provincial to Municipal. The Feds here take an extremely hands-off approach to anything to do with roads, except for the occasional bridge or to chip in funding for a project.

A simple "maintained by ______" tab at the bottom could have been one idea, or creating a slightly different shield for downloaded and connecting link highways should have been done. But like much of Harris' governance, it was a slash first, learn the consequences later mentality.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking too (the tab I mean).

I wonder if Ontario is due for a renumbering similar to what California did in 1964. Maybe I'm just OCD when it comes to that kind of stuff, but the lack of a coherent numbering system in Ontario really irks me.

 

[Steve X]

I wonder if Ontario is due for a renumbering similar to what California did in 1964. Maybe I'm just OCD when it comes to that kind of stuff, but the lack of a coherent numbering system in Ontario really irks me.

Quebec renumbered their entire highway network in the 70s. There isn't a lot of highways left in Southern Ontario anymore but I think they should fix the discontinuity like highway 3 or 7 and get rid of the stubs like the tiny section highway 2 or 20. Just give it a 7xxx number and post the country/region road sign instead.

 

[lenaitch]

One problem with renumbering is the impact on properties along the routes who need new municipal addresses, changes to 911 databases, new driver licences nad registrations, business records, etc. and likely major changes to internal MTO databases (like railways who keep mileages for shortened subdivisions - it's just felt to be too expensive to re-calibrate). Of course this happened when highways were downloaded but this would be renumbering for the sake of renumbering.

The MTO maintains about 16,000 km of highways (all classes). The 'Harris download' shifted about 5,000. I think there's lot of highways left.

 

[Steve X]

One problem with renumbering is the impact on properties along the routes who need new municipal addresses, changes to 911 databases, new driver licences nad registrations, business records, etc. and likely major changes to internal MTO databases (like railways who keep mileages for shortened subdivisions - it's just felt to be too expensive to re-calibrate). Of course this happened when highways were downloaded but this would be renumbering for the sake of renumbering.

The MTO maintains about 16,000 km of highways (all classes). The 'Harris download' shifted about 5,000. I think there's lot of highways left.

There's a lot of highways left in "NORTHERN" Ontario cause there's no one to download the secondary highways to.

There is approximately 2500 km of non-expressway highways in Southern Ontario with regional/county governments meaning Harris killed about 2/3rd of the highway where possible. If Harris could download the Northern highways, I bet the number of highways left would be countable with fingers.

 

[gweed123]

One problem with renumbering is the impact on properties along the routes who need new municipal addresses, changes to 911 databases, new driver licences nad registrations, business records, etc. and likely major changes to internal MTO databases (like railways who keep mileages for shortened subdivisions - it's just felt to be too expensive to re-calibrate). Of course this happened when highways were downloaded but this would be renumbering for the sake of renumbering.

The MTO maintains about 16,000 km of highways (all classes). The 'Harris download' shifted about 5,000. I think there's lot of highways left.

That's a good point. It definitely wouldn't be painless, but like anything it's a balancing act between inconvenience and navigability.

There's a lot of highways left in "NORTHERN" Ontario cause there's no one to download the secondary highways to.

There is approximately 2500 km of non-expressway highways in Southern Ontario with regional/county governments meaning Harris killed about 2/3rd of the highway where possible. If Harris could download the Northern highways, I bet the number of highways left would be countable with fingers.

It would be little more than the 400-series network, Highway 11, and Highway 17.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wouldn't be so dramatic. There are still quite a few provincial highways in southern Ontario that easily could have been downloaded, though yes, less than there should be. 12, 35, 7, 3, 6, 10, 8, 24, 19, 4, 21, 40, 15, 37, 62, 118, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Mcurtis]

The consultant working on the stretch of 400 highway in and around Barrie has released their newest version of the planned expansion and overpass replacement.

http://highway400dunlopannesunnidale.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/GWP-2504-17-00-Highway-400-Anne-Street-Public-Information-Update-Version2.pdf

 

[Northern Light]

A Guelph-area company has apparently invented a smog-eating sound barrier for the edge of freeways. Test segments, in Toronto, among other locations have apparently been successful and are reducing pollution/smog by upwards of 50%

Very interesting, and useful, if it truly works that well, and can be rolled out and maintained practically.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1289231345911177218

I do wonder though how much of the pollution would normally rise directly from where the car emits it, never passing near said sound barriers.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The consultant working on the stretch of 400 highway in and around Barrie has released their newest version of the planned expansion and overpass replacement.

http://highway400dunlopannesunnidale.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/GWP-2504-17-00-Highway-400-Anne-Street-Public-Information-Update-Version2.pdf

Similarly, MTO is preparing to replace the Innisfil Beach Road Interchange.

Innisfil Beach Road interchange and bridge set to be replaced

The main highway interchange in Innisfil is due for a facelift.

www.simcoe.com

Work seems to be heating up to prepare for a widening of the highway, but the actual widening still seems almost a decade away I would guess for the full highway.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5-6 years from now we see the 400 widened from Major Mack to Bradford and from Innisfil Beach Road to Dunlop Street, with the rest of the highway filling out by the end of the decade.

That would be an optimistic timeline at least.