Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[terag51]

What is the highway 400 plans.

Is it an 3expansion to highway 9 or barrie and how many lanes.

I drive it a lot now as my sister lives in Bradford.

The Hwy 400 project would look similar to this when completed: (Hwy 403/QEW w. of Burloak Dr.)

 

[Transportfan]

The 400 looks like it could hold three more lanes inside though. Thought it was only supposed to be 5+5 to Barrie.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The 400 looks like it could hold three more lanes inside though. Thought it was only supposed to be 5+5 to Barrie.

The 400 before the widening had very substandard width interior shoulders. The widening is adding an HOV lane, which is more like 1.5 lanes wide, as well as widened shoulders on both the interior and exterior of the highway. Once you combine all of that you end up with a significantly wider highway than before, even if its only 1 actual new vehicle lane.

The "ultimate" configuration is 4 general purpose and 1 HOV though, yes.

 

[lenaitch]

I really don't know how you would charge a driver with that tax. My post was mostly throwing my idea out there for others to expand on.

Then I guess my response was more of a contraction than an expansion. The only way to levy for use is by tolling, which becomes a major challenge when the 'paid' area is separated by only a line and a sign.

 

[Jasmine18]

Yeah there should be one regular lane added.


400 is way to busy to remain a 3 lane highway

 

[Deadpool X]

No clue. It will be no short years to balance it out and looks like decades.

We may see one day a fee for mileage and it doesn't matter where you drive. There been talks about going this route. If you drive 10,000 km a year or 60,000, the fee rate is the same, but the bill will be either low or high depending on how much you drive. If the fee happens, that will be the end to my 8,000+ yearly holiday driving.

Driving is the only option for me based on where I want to go, as you can't do the side trip from X mode of travel or when you want to do it in NA compare to Europe.

If you are suggesting a fee for the mileage to anywhere, then it is simple. Just add a tax to gas. There aren't that many electric cars right now but they can have a charge added to the electricity they are consuming. If they are using household electricity, there could be a way for the hydro company to know that you charged your car and add that charge to your bill.

 

[Deadpool X]

It would be easier to just toll all the express lanes with sensors and cameras at the transfer lanes.

Tolling 1 lane: High price for 1 lane
Tolling 3 lanes: Lower price for 3 lanes

I would hate if we toll 401 and some of that traffic shifts to 407. It's good for the city but I would hate seeing that company earn even more than what they are earning now.

 

[drum118]

I would hate if we toll 401 and some of that traffic shifts to 407. It's good for the city but I would hate seeing that company earn even more than what they are earning now.

You will never catch me using the 407 as its highway robbery to use it in the first place. Got to Thank good old Mike for selling one of many farms well in power.

 

[sche]

I would hate if we toll 401 and some of that traffic shifts to 407. It's good for the city but I would hate seeing that company earn even more than what they are earning now.

I mean, the CPP owns a majority stake so at least half of the money is being used for a decent purpose

 

[gweed123]

Logically the latter makes sense.

All the other provincial highways in Toronto were already under local control anyway and would have been considered "connecting links". Downloading officially likely did make sense as it removed any formal control from MTO, which is an issue in other municipalities today who struggle to get MTO approval for modifications they want to make on roads that are technically theirs to maintain.

My main issue with the 1997 downloading was it created a disjointed system, with random pieces of longer routes being re-numbered. The more 'local' routes may not have made sense from a longer distance travel perspective, but they are still important routes at a more local level.

Why couldn't the King's Highway signs have been kept up, but the maintenance responsibility get transferred to the local municipality? At least that way you could still navigate Hwy 9 from one end to the other without having it become Hwy 109 for a random section in the middle.

 

[W. K. Lis]

My main issue with the 1997 downloading was it created a disjointed system, with random pieces of longer routes being re-numbered. The more 'local' routes may not have made sense from a longer distance travel perspective, but they are still important routes at a more local level.

Why couldn't the King's Highway signs have been kept up, but the maintenance responsibility get transferred to the local municipality? At least that way you could still navigate Hwy 9 from one end to the other without having it become Hwy 109 for a random section in the middle.

For example, in Toronto, Dundas Street West in Etobicoke is was Highway 5 up to the 6-points (Kipling/Dundas/Bloor) intersection, where Highway 5 becomes Bloor Street West, then Bloor Street East, and lastly Danforth Avenue until it reaches Kingston Road in Scarborough.

 

[ShonTron]

My main issue with the 1997 downloading was it created a disjointed system, with random pieces of longer routes being re-numbered. The more 'local' routes may not have made sense from a longer distance travel perspective, but they are still important routes at a more local level.

Why couldn't the King's Highway signs have been kept up, but the maintenance responsibility get transferred to the local municipality? At least that way you could still navigate Hwy 9 from one end to the other without having it become Hwy 109 for a random section in the middle.

Some of the older highways definitely didn't make sense by the 1990s. There wasn't really a need to keep 500-series secondary highways in Renfrew, Lanark, and Peterborough Counties on the books where there was a county government able to take them on. Short intramunicipal connectors like Highway 88 in Bradford weren't really necessary either. Same with Highway 11 south of Barrie, or Highway 93 south of Highway 400.

But Highway 9 was the opposite extreme, and the worst of a long list of highways (I'd add other long rural highways, like 86 or the south part of Highway 28) that never should have been downloaded.

 

[terag51]

Some of the older highways definitely didn't make sense by the 1990s. There wasn't really a need to keep 500-series secondary highways in Renfrew, Lanark, and Peterborough Counties on the books where there was a county government able to take them on. Short intramunicipal connectors like Highway 88 in Bradford weren't really necessary either. Same with Highway 11 south of Barrie, or Highway 93 south of Highway 400.

But Highway 9 was the opposite extreme, and the worst of a long list of highways (I'd add other long rural highways, like 86 or the south part of Highway 28) that never should have been downloaded.

I disagree about Hwy 88 being downloaded (at least EAST of the 400) but I do understand your point...

Until the Bradford Bypass is built, many out of town commuters use the 88/11/Green Lane combo to get from the 404 to 400 and vice versa.

 

[lenaitch]

My main issue with the 1997 downloading was it created a disjointed system, with random pieces of longer routes being re-numbered. The more 'local' routes may not have made sense from a longer distance travel perspective, but they are still important routes at a more local level.

Why couldn't the King's Highway signs have been kept up, but the maintenance responsibility get transferred to the local municipality? At least that way you could still navigate Hwy 9 from one end to the other without having it become Hwy 109 for a random section in the middle.

Largely because when you turn ownership over to somebody else, they get to call it whatever they like. It's not just maintenance. Some jurisdictions did manage to keep the county designation consistent with the previous highway, some didn't even try and some couldn't because the number was taken. Simcoe couldn't designate former Highway 11 as County Rd. 11 because the number was already in use (Old Barrie Rd.) but they did manage to keep several consistent.

Some of the older highways definitely didn't make sense by the 1990s. There wasn't really a need to keep 500-series secondary highways in Renfrew, Lanark, and Peterborough Counties on the books where there was a county government able to take them on. Short intramunicipal connectors like Highway 88 in Bradford weren't really necessary either. Same with Highway 11 south of Barrie, or Highway 93 south of Highway 400.

But Highway 9 was the opposite extreme, and the worst of a long list of highways (I'd add other long rural highways, like 86 or the south part of Highway 28) that never should have been downloaded.

If I recall the process correctly, the rationale was to transfer roads that no longer had a provincial or inter-jurisdictional role, but the goal was to create a net-zero accounting for services that were uploaded from the municipalities (welfare?). Agree that some seem to defy logic. The province downloaded approx. 7km of Hwy 12 to run concurrently with Hwy 400 near Coldwater. So it is Hwy 12, then County Rd. 16, then Hwy 12 again. Because the two route run close together, it confuses GPS which in turn confuses drivers. I've witnessed some very close calls at the intersections at both ends.

 

[lenaitch]

I disagree about Hwy 88 being downloaded (at least EAST of the 400) but I do understand your point...

Until the Bradford Bypass is built, many out of town commuters use the 88/11/Green Lane combo to get from the 404 to 400 and vice versa.

I could be mistaken but I think one of the criteria was that a highway had to terminate at another highway, which would have precluded 88 east of the 400 since 11 was downloaded.