Rail Deck Park (?, ?, ?)

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

LPAT isn't the ultimate adjudicator.

This isn't some random development site, and the status of air-rights ownership is contested. The city and the developer here are both likely fully prepared to appeal this through the court system.

Maybe . Very few LPAT cases get appealed to the courts, though this one seems ripe for it. Doesn't mean they'll hear it, but they certainly could.

There's also almost certainly going to be issues with the City's expropriation offers and a Hearing of Necessity there. It still goes to my point that a compromise would be best for all parties.

 

[innsertnamehere]

LPAT cases can only get appealed if they believe there has been an error in law in the LPAT's decision as well, not that the LPAT made the wrong decision. I.e. the LPAT out-stepped it's legal bounds, the hearing wasn't not properly run, etc.

It's very rare for something to get appealed past the LPAT.

Last I heard here, for example, the developer here tried to appeal the LPATs decision to dismiss their appeal of the City OPA on the site to designate it parkland. The Ontario Superior Court denied the request to even hear the matter as they were not convinced that there was an error in law on the part of the LPAT in the making of the decision.

 

[zot627]

LPAT isn't the ultimate adjudicator.

This isn't some random development site, and the status of air-rights ownership is contested. The city and the developer here are both likely fully prepared to appeal this through the court system.

In what way is the status of the air rights ownership contested?

 

[44 North]

I really have trouble wrapping my head around how anything above a couple stories could be built here. A park or a parking lot seem like the only things. It's a maxed-out rail corridor that's 100m wide...where would the footings and foundations go for any tower?

Feel like this whale of a proposal will be easily tossed aside and something civic can be built. Eventually. Nobody said now or never all or nothing. Lots of our projects are being done in phases. Waterfront west, central, east, ferry docks, all our ravine trail systems. Tommy Thompson is going on what numerous decades and still is a work in progress.

 

[kotsy]

I really have trouble wrapping my head around how anything above a couple stories could be built here. A park or a parking lot seem like the only things. It's a maxed-out rail corridor that's 100m wide...where would the footings and foundations go for any tower?

They made it work for a cluster of towers on top of Hudson Yards in New York and I'm sure that space was considered maxed out at one point as well.

 

[44 North]

They made it work for a cluster of towers on top of Hudson Yards in New York and I'm sure that space was considered maxed out at one point as well.

It seems like with Hudson there was still more buildable ground on the sides to make it work. Whereas this has a 10m strip along Front. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[kotsy]

It seems like with Hudson there was still more buildable ground on the sides to make it work. Whereas this has a 10m strip along Front. Maybe I'm wrong.

I feel like they could still figure out it out if they really wanted to but I could be easily wrong too lol

 

[zot627]

Well, the people who actually own the site hiring a world-class architect is a peculiar move if they're only doing this as a cash grab but it sure is keeping things interesting!

Moshe Safdie Retained in Updated ORCA Project Concept | UrbanToronto

P.I.T.S. Development Inc. has brought world-renowned Moshe Safdie on board for its ORCA Project, a competing scheme to the City's Rail Deck Park that envisions 10 towers and a mix of residential, office, retail and open space over the Union Station Rail Corridor.

urbantoronto.ca

From a developer that has never built one single condo, let alone 10 towers above the rail and didn't exist before this air rights debacle

What do you mean by "air rights debacle"? Here are some facts from recent media releases. There are air rights over the rail corridor. The City would like to acquire those air rights for an aspirational park. According to Mayor Tory, the City has apparently not been able to agree on a purchase price for the air rights. The City has the right to expropriate the air rights any time it wants at fair market value but has not done so. Where's the debacle? It would be wonderful to have a world class park in that area but the City has to put its money where its mouth is and so far they haven't. I wouldn't call that a debacle. It's just an example of having dreams that are bigger than your wallet.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What do you mean by "air rights debacle"? Here are some facts from recent media releases. There are air rights over the rail corridor. The City would like to acquire those air rights for an aspirational park. According to Mayor Tory, the City has apparently not been able to agree on a purchase price for the air rights. The City has the right to expropriate the air rights any time it wants at fair market value but has not done so. Where's the debacle? It would be wonderful to have a world class park in that area but the City has to put its money where its mouth is and so far they haven't. I wouldn't call that a debacle. It's just an example of having dreams that are bigger than your wallet.

"Fair market value" in 2020? Wonder if the "value" went lower? Usually, the seller would want to see at "current value" today than five years ago. Wonder what the "fair market value" was in 2015?

 

[zot627]

"Fair market value" in 2020? Wonder if the "value" went lower? Usually, the seller would want to see at "current value" today than five years ago. Wonder what the "fair market value" was in 2015?

By default the effective date of valuation is the date of registration of the plan of expropriation, unless the parties mutually agree to a different date. It takes three to six months from Council passing a by-law authorizing commencement of expropriation proceedings to register the plan of expropriation. The earliest date of valuation would be late 2020 or early 2021, so "fair market value in 2015" doesn't matter. Fortunately for all of us we're still in a democracy and there are rules that govern the process by which government takes your land. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90e26

 

[Mercenary]

This Park won't be built until 2035 at the minimum.

 

[Towered]

This Park won't be built until 2035 at the minimum.

If that even. No way is council going to approve spending even 1 billion, let alone nearly 4, on a park in this economy.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Hopefully that’ll be the name of the GO station as well. Better than Cityplace and certainly better than just calling it Spadina.

 

[north-of-anything]

Hopefully that’ll be the name of the GO station as well. Better than Cityplace and certainly better than just calling it Spadina.

I'm partial to "Blue Jay" because of Blue Jays Way.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

.

Fortunately for all of us we're still in a democracy and there are rules that govern the process by which government takes your land. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90e26

...or your air But well said. There's a whole process of the government demonstrating they need it, the owners being able to appeal etc.

I suspect, as others have said, the real question won't be WHEN the value is determined but whether the City tries to/is able to argue the value isn't much - because it's only usable as parkland now - or whether the owners are able to value is based on it being suitable for development. So there's Hearing of Necessity and LPAT issues long before we start worrying about the court system, per se.

Between all that and the funding situation, the timeline for the park seems....long. Obviously no development could proceed until these issues are resolved either. Last we heard, the parties weren't even talking to each other but I wonder if the changing circumstances have gotten them even floating the idea of some kind of settlement.