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Peterborough Commuter Rail

dowlingm

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What was the saving on an annual,basis from killing off the train?
There were figures thrown around by the Liberals at the time but I don't think they ever showed their work, and certainly not what it would cost to have VIA to take over the train and leverage their economies of scale and network as they proport to be willing to do in the case of Peterborough.
 

crs1026

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if you really believe the 3rd point is a factor....why would you revisit this in 2021? Is there a chance we will need less greenbelt then?
Well, hopefully the development goes where RER goes......but yeah, maybe a firm 'no' now gives something to stick to down the road.

- Paul
 

alexanderglista

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Posted this in the VIA thread but also thought it belonged here:

VIA Rail link between Perth, Smiths Falls could become reality by 2019
Inside Ottawa Valley - August 30th, 2016 - http://www.insideottawavalley.com/n...th-smiths-falls-could-become-reality-by-2019/

"A new, electric VIA Rail corridor starting in Peterborough could connect Perth and Smiths Falls.

Perth Mayor John Fenik revealed at the very end of the Tuesday, Aug. 30 council meeting that he had been in talks that very morning with Lt. Cmdr. (retired) Jacques Fauteux, director of government and community relations with the office of Yves Desjardins-Siciliano, the president and CEO of VIA Rail Canada, that very morning.

“It’s not at the federal level yet for approval,” said Fenik during the media questions section of the agenda. “They want to establish a link.”

VIA Rail Canada, according to Fenik, has been canvassing politicians all along the proposed corridor, and Fenik himself intends to establish a mayor’s coalition to make this proposal happen. He promised to meet with Smiths Falls Mayor Shawn Pankow on Wednesday, Aug. 31.... Read More"
 

crs1026

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There's no doubt that Peterborough would receive an intercity stop if this went through, but a local stop "commuter service" implies a further investment over and above what VIA is said to be contemplating. The HFR would be putting eastward trains out of Union in the morning at the same time that the Toronto bound commuters are heading westwards. Afternoon rush hour would be problemmatic because there will be HFR in both directions plus commuter.

Getting CP freight off the North Toronto line would be a prerequisite to this. Maybe this is the lever that puts the Feds into supporting the Missing Link plan.

Similarly, a Moose service feeding Ottawa would need much new track.

This may be VIA's preferred intercity route, but the commuter aspect strikes me as local interests inserting themselves into the plan. Certainly, if Peterboro commuter is undertaken ahead of getting GO RER going, it's a rewrite of the RER priorities. we can't build ( or pay for) everything at once.

- Paul
 

MisterF

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There's no doubt that Peterborough would receive an intercity stop if this went through, but a local stop "commuter service" implies a further investment over and above what VIA is said to be contemplating. The HFR would be putting eastward trains out of Union in the morning at the same time that the Toronto bound commuters are heading westwards. Afternoon rush hour would be problemmatic because there will be HFR in both directions plus commuter.

Getting CP freight off the North Toronto line would be a prerequisite to this. Maybe this is the lever that puts the Feds into supporting the Missing Link plan.

Similarly, a Moose service feeding Ottawa would need much new track.

This may be VIA's preferred intercity route, but the commuter aspect strikes me as local interests inserting themselves into the plan. Certainly, if Peterboro commuter is undertaken ahead of getting GO RER going, it's a rewrite of the RER priorities. we can't build ( or pay for) everything at once.

- Paul
The way I see it, it's not other interests inserting themselves into Via's plan, it's the opposite: Via is incorporating an older proposal into their plan. So Peterborough gets its rail service back, Via gets its own tracks and vastly improved service, and governments don't have to justify spending hundreds of millions to serve only Peterborough. As for conflicts between intercity and commuter services, I don't see the issue. Via already has varying stop patterns, with some trains stopping more than others - the same is true of any rail operator. Via having a couple daily commuter milk runs on their line through Peterborough would be no different.

You could be right about this being linked to the missing link plan. While as far as I know Via is planning to continue using Union, if they go through Peterborough they'd use part of the CP midtown mainline to get downtown. I think we'll hear a lot more about the missing link.

My prediction: Shining Waters as we know it is dead and Via's proposal will replace it.
 

steveintoronto

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Once again, the Missing Link is the 'ring the binds them all'. If the Feds announce a Missing Link proposal, then everything else in the GTA falls into place the way it should, with provisos of course. And Peterborough would most likely get a a form of commuter rail on top of a line VIA establishes. If the Feds are considering the Missing Link, the sooner it is announced, the better for everyone in terms of the plans in place presuming it wasn't going to happen.

There might be some very steeped, contentious arm-twisting going on behind closed doors that all parties concerned don't want revealed in the press.

One only hopes....certainly the silence surrounding almost every aspect is curious. Note it isn't Desjardins-Sicilliano revealing this latest news. It's leaking from those involved in preliminary discussions. It was probably known that they couldn't contain loose lips at the muni level.

It's not much more than gossip at this point, but very interesting gossip.
 
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robmausser

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The way I see it, it's not other interests inserting themselves into Via's plan, it's the opposite: Via is incorporating an older proposal into their plan. So Peterborough gets its rail service back, Via gets its own tracks and vastly improved service, and governments don't have to justify spending hundreds of millions to serve only Peterborough. As for conflicts between intercity and commuter services, I don't see the issue. Via already has varying stop patterns, with some trains stopping more than others - the same is true of any rail operator. Via having a couple daily commuter milk runs on their line through Peterborough would be no different.

You could be right about this being linked to the missing link plan. While as far as I know Via is planning to continue using Union, if they go through Peterborough they'd use part of the CP midtown mainline to get downtown. I think we'll hear a lot more about the missing link.

My prediction: Shining Waters as we know it is dead and Via's proposal will replace it.
I would say that VIA's proposal for commuter trains in Halifax, and commuter trains between Windsor/London/Sarnia bolster this claim.

Clearly VIA is interested in offering commuter service of some kind, they realize its where all the money and service levels lie.

I don't see a need for competing services on the Peterborough run, in fact the service levels wouldn't demand it.
 

crs1026

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I'm sure that VIA is a willing partner to commuter operations, and would welcome someone funding additions to the intercity plan, but let's stop and think a moment.

The Missing Link is....when? I would be VERY surpsised if CP allowed any incursion onto its Agincourt - Leaside line until the alternate route were available. Same for Perth- Smiths Falls, the second track would have to be relaid before that would fly. Can this be done by 2019? How about 2025?

Can the Smiths Falls-Ottawa line handle a Moose operation on top of ViA's planned (added) HFR frequency? Again, more track needed. VIA has already restricted use of one siding on that line due to NIMBY pressure.... how long will it take to get approval and funding, do an EA, placate NIMBY's, and then begin and complete construction? How many grade separations in the Fallowfield area.... this could add cost in the same magnitude as GTS.

What kind of commuter service are we suggesting Peterboro- Toronto? There is no place on the Havelock Sub that can justify a HFR stop, the ridership isn't there at present. VIA is interested in running commuter trains, yes.... but only if provinces or municipalities offers support, builds stations, etc. Is Ontario ready to commit? Does Ontario have the funding available? Is there actually ridership? (As I said previously, hopefully those new subdivisions never happen...we need the sprawl halted before it reaches the Havelock Sub)

I am sure that all of this can be made to happen by, say, 2035. But the assertions that once VIA has HFR in place, all of this will fit on those rails neatly without interfering with HFR is a lot like John Tory saying that once we have RER in place, SmartTrack will fit on those tracks too. And, like saying RER is around the corner.....HFR by 2019 is a bit unrealistic also.

All good ideas that I'd love to see, but I'm not banking on 2019.

- Paul
 

MisterF

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I think you guys are making the commuter rail question more of an issue than it is. Via already offers commuter services. Some trains are focused on intercity trips, others are geared more towards commuters. There's no conflict or competition between the two. Via has morning trains to Toronto from towns like Port Hope, Cobourg and Woodstock that are commuter-oriented. Peterborough would be no different, and it's bigger than those three towns combined so there's obviously a market.

The Shining Waters plan was for two inbound trains in the morning and two outbound in the afternoon. That's the kind of service Via already provides on their other lines.
 

steveintoronto

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I would say that VIA's proposal for commuter trains in Halifax, and commuter trains between Windsor/London/Sarnia bolster this claim.
I was digging for Desjardins-Siciliano's recent quotes on other VIA matters last night, and came across reference to the Win/Sar/Lon proposed routes. A number of posters have been wondering on the fate of the refurbished Budd RDCs, and CN is not giving VIA an answer, and thus, no comment from VIA on it. Totally up in the air still...which in itself is not definitive to that situation or any other, but *highly indicative* of how VIA's best wishes are totally dependent on those of her host's. I'm not surprised in the least. No word on the Wynne Gang and the CN gelding on their little tete-a-tete for the "K/W Corridor Freight By-Pass"...sounds like a square dance, don't it? "You put your left foot in, you pull your left foot out, put it in, pull it out, wave it all about...". Hey...it had a catchy tune. Some posters loved it. They downloaded the whole album and want more.

VIA is interested in running commuter trains, yes.... but only if provinces or municipalities offers support, builds stations, etc. Is Ontario ready to commit? Does Ontario have the funding available? Is there actually ridership?
This can and will make all the difference. I do disagree with the southern sub not being available to VIA, CP would be only too glad to see it either sold, exchanged or upgraded for temporal use to a higher freight standard as well as passenger, but the north end will require a dedicated track. That's a whole other discussion ongoing at the Missing Link forum, complete with Acts being quoted. It can certainly be done, but VIA would only too gladly come to an arrangement with Metrolinx to share infrastructure, not just for the fiscal aspect, but also to have *inertia* in terms of making the case for funding on the Hill. If Ontario also has skin in the game, the Feds will be far less reticent.

More on this later, but again, the wild-card on the table is The Missing Link.
 

robmausser

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but *highly indicative* of how VIA's best wishes are totally dependent on those of her host's.
"Before the last federal election, a private member’s Bill C-640, introduced by NDP MP Philip Tone, was defeated on second reading. Such a bill would have given VIA Rail the legislative authority it needs, and has operated without since its inception. Among other things, it gave passengers priority over freight traffic. "
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/opinion-will-the-liberals-save-via-rail

Oh what could have been....
 

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