Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[lenaitch]

The station is (will be) "in Timmins", just not downtown. Timmins, like other northern Ontario communities founded on a mining camp, is a cluster of separate settlements that grew up around mines (some company towns) that turned into neighbourhoods. Much of the original alignment continues into areas of virtually no settlement but by the time it gets near the original station, it is built over. Without land purchases, using the old ROW could have gotten them closer, but not to, the old station.

There might be issues of surface or subsurface mining rights encroaching on the ROW or on areas where an alternative ROW could be that we are not familiar with.

It might simply be that the government wasn't willing to take on the rehabilitation and expropriation/land purchase costs. 'Juice vs squeeze', a big expenditure for little real gain. The North Bay station is not downtown and neither is the Kirkland Lake station stop.

 

[micheal_can]

The station is (will be) "in Timmins", just not downtown. Timmins, like other northern Ontario communities founded on a mining camp, is a cluster of separate settlements that grew up around mines (some company towns) that turned into neighbourhoods. Much of the original alignment continues into areas of virtually no settlement but by the time it gets near the original station, it is built over. Without land purchases, using the old ROW could have gotten them closer, but not to, the old station.

There might be issues of surface or subsurface mining rights encroaching on the ROW or on areas where an alternative ROW could be that we are not familiar with.

It might simply be that the government wasn't willing to take on the rehabilitation and expropriation/land purchase costs. 'Juice vs squeeze', a big expenditure for little real gain. The North Bay station is not downtown and neither is the Kirkland Lake station stop.

North Bay Museum to Ontario Northland - North Bay Bus Station

www.google.com

Under 4km, walkable, and has regular transit.

The Timmins station is not walkable and is 8km away.

It could be compared to the Sudbury Junction station and the downtown one. It is also bad. It does not even have transit to it.

I truly hope that this is a temporary station and that in a decade when ridership is where it needs to be, a closer station is built.

 

[dowlingm]

Actually, I think rail is still in place but long out of service. I no longer have a Canadian Trackside Guide but I believe the stretch west of Kidd was identified as 'Hydro Spur'.

that (“Ontario Hydro spur”) is what the 2024 edition calls the track beyond the Ramore Subdivision terminus in Porcupine.

 

[Garuda]

I'd prefer to see a station downtown Timmins at the old station but this is a good stop gap until the rails can be relaid and graded. Given how slow government works I'd give such a return 20 years at minimum.

 

[ShonTron]

You could only go in as far as the east end of Schumacher, because Highway 101 uses the ONR alignment through there. There’s no chance that 101 would be moved or narrowed to allow the track to be put back.

And there’s a hourly local transit bus to Porcupine, it stops one block away from the station site.

 

[micheal_can]

You could only go in as far as the east end of Schumacher, because Highway 101 uses the ONR alignment through there. There’s no chance that 101 would be moved or narrowed to allow the track to be put back.

And there’s a hourly local transit bus to Porcupine, it stops one block away from the station site.

A station in Schumacher would be close enough to the downtown that it is almost walkable.

A singular hourly bus isn't that good. It's better than nothing though.

 

[lenaitch]

Remember the (proposed) train times for Timmins; 0015 departure and 0510 arrival. Both likely well outside of Timmins Transit operating times (I didn't check). They could extend their hours of operations - for a single bus route - but that comes at significant municipal taxpayer cost. I'm not sure many would choose to walk much of anywhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter.

 

[Northern Light]

Remember the (proposed) train times for Timmins; 0015 departure and 0510 arrival. Both likely well outside of Timmins Transit operating times (I didn't check). They could extend their hours of operations - for a single bus route - but that comes at significant municipal taxpayer cost. I'm not sure many would choose to walk much of anywhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter.

That route, when it has evening service (none on Sundays, runs to ~10:30pm from the area of the station:

901 Timmins Westbound

www.timmins.ca

So it would require 2 additional runs to service the departure slot.

Conversely the service doesn't begin til 8:30am most days, which means you would need ~3 extra runs in the morning.

Obviously that only gets people into Timmins proper (or from it) and doesn't guarantee any service from the in-town bus terminal.

It reads as 0.6 FTE people (plus fuel) to run the extra service 5 days per week, or about 1FTE for daily.

I wouldn't imagine one get all that much fare revenue at such an hour, and shift-premiums may be required as well.

 

[micheal_can]

That route, when it has evening service (none on Sundays, runs to ~10:30pm from the area of the station:

901 Timmins Westbound

www.timmins.ca

So it would require 2 additional runs to service the departure slot.

Conversely the service doesn't begin til 8:30am most days, which means you would need ~3 extra runs in the morning.

Obviously that only gets people into Timmins proper (or from it) and doesn't guarantee any service from the in-town bus terminal.

It reads as 0.6 FTE people (plus fuel) to run the extra service 5 days per week, or about 1FTE for daily.

I wouldn't imagine one get all that much fare revenue at such an hour, and shift-premiums may be required as well.

16 SOUTH Porcupine/Porcupine

www.timmins.ca

This one runs at 630 am and gets to the area around 657.
Add one bus at 5 am ish, and you can get the 510 arrival.

Also, they state they are running on a Saturday schedule until further notice. That may change when the train service arrives.

Ideally, this bus would go downtown and all the buses would make one more round so that Northlander passengers can get to their destination by transit.

 

[crs1026]

I can't help comparing to say Halifax, where the airport - which is a fairly expensive taxi or Uber ride from the city - has only an hourly transit bus to the airport.

The reality is, Less than daily service to Timmins at wee hours will have at best a barebones last mile infrastructure. If bigger busier cities can't afford more, it's unrealistic to imagine any different. And if I were visioning a location for some sort of demonstration of seamless end to end public transport, I would pick Halifax (orother cities) before Timmins. It's nice to see the Northlander brought back, but it's not the application where we pull out all the stops.

99% of travellers to Timmins will have arranged auto transport of some sort, be it personal auto or taxi, and they will be fine with that.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I can't help comparing to say Halifax, where the airport - which is a fairly expensive taxi or Uber ride from the city - has only an hourly transit bus to the airport.

The reality is, Less than daily service Timmins at wee hours will have at best a barebones last mile infrastructure. If bigger busier cities can't afford more, it's unrealistic to imagine any different. And if I were visioning a location for some sort of demonstration of seamless end to end public transport, I would pick Halifax (orother cities) before Timmins. It's nice to see the Northlander brought back, but it's not the application where we pull out all the stops.

99% of travellers to Timmins will have arranged auto transport of some sort, and they will be fine with that.

- Paul

As someone who lived in Halifax and rode their transit....

Scotia Square is their main terminal downtown. , It is 30 km from the airport. The closest terminal in the area is the Cobequid Terminal, in Sackville. That is still 20km away. The bus does come from the Scotia Square and has been running since 2009.

Realize that seamless transfers between modes of transportation are a relatively new concept in Canada. So,if we are putting in a new mode of transportation, we should endeavor to make it as seamless as possible. They could even do a "dial a ride" system to solve the problem. I remember a time where in Whitby, in the evenings,their transit turned into a dial a ride where You called and they would pick you up and drop you off with the one bus making the rounds of the entire town. This could help the cities decide of a scheduled bus service to serve the train passengers.

 

[lenaitch]

It reads as 0.6 FTE people (plus fuel) to run the extra service 5 days per week, or about 1FTE for daily.

It would likely be more than just the cost of a driver and fuel. I doubt Timmins Transit gives the drivers keys to the barn and gets them to turn the coffee on in the morning and the lights off at night. I would imagine any time a bus is on the road there is a manager/supervisor, as well as mechanics, dispatcher, facility people, etc.

I can't help comparing to say Halifax, where the airport - which is a fairly expensive taxi or Uber ride from the city - has only an hourly transit bus to the airport.

The reality is, Less than daily service to Timmins at wee hours will have at best a barebones last mile infrastructure. If bigger busier cities can't afford more, it's unrealistic to imagine any different. And if I were visioning a location for some sort of demonstration of seamless end to end public transport, I would pick Halifax (orother cities) before Timmins. It's nice to see the Northlander brought back, but it's not the application where we pull out all the stops.

99% of travellers to Timmins will have arranged auto transport of some sort, be it personal auto or taxi, and they will be fine with that.

- Paul

Best as I can tell, Timmins Transit doesn't even run to the airport.

Realize that seamless transfers between modes of transportation are a relatively new concept in Canada. So,if we are putting in a new mode of transportation, we should endeavor to make it as seamless as possible. They could even do a "dial a ride" system to solve the problem. I remember a time where in Whitby, in the evenings,their transit turned into a dial a ride where You called and they would pick you up and drop you off with the one bus making the rounds of the entire town. This could help the cities decide of a scheduled bus service to serve the train passengers

According to their website, Timmins Transit is piloting an on-demand service. Issues of operating hours would still apply.

These 'last mile' issues are all good things for the taxpayers and municipal leaders of the City of Timmins to consider.

 

[micheal_can]

It would likely be more than just the cost of a driver and fuel. I doubt Timmins Transit gives the drivers keys to the barn and gets them to turn the coffee on in the morning and the lights off at night. I would imagine any time a bus is on the road there is a manager/supervisor, as well as mechanics, dispatcher, facility people, etc.


Best as I can tell, Timmins Transit doesn't even run to the airport.

Only Thunder Bay and North Bay have pubic transit to other airports in Northern ON. Timmins, SSM and Sudbury do not.

According to their website, Timmins Transit is piloting an on-demand service. Issues of operating hours would still apply.

These 'last mile' issues are all good things for the taxpayers and municipal leaders of the City of Timmins to consider.

Agreed.

 

[micheal_can]

In the spirit of this thread, for those of us who are happy the Northlander is returning, once it returns, is that it?
Have we solved all the transportation problems in Northern ON?
Once the return of the Northlander is seen as a success, what next?
I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear others first.

 

[cplchanb]

In the spirit of this thread, for those of us who are happy the Northlander is returning, once it returns, is that it?
Have we solved all the transportation problems in Northern ON?
Once the return of the Northlander is seen as a success, what next?
I have my own thoughts, but I'd like to hear others first.

Where else can they expand to?