Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[lenaitch]

If the project goes ahead, there will undoubtedly be an airstrip and chartered air flights - just as there are to resource projects west of Hudsons Bay. Getting to and from the sites quickly is part of the attraction package for workers in those projects.

- Paul

No doubt. Even Newmont's Musselwhite Mine (currently up for sale), n/w of Central Patricia, is on a road but it is so remote that it is considered a fly-in camp. Gone are the days of live-in remote camps.

 

[Bojaxs]

workers aren't going to travel from Toronto to several hours north of Thunder Bay for their shifts.

I would imagine mining sites in the RoF would set their work schedules up in a way that's very similar with the oil sands in Alberta. 2 weeks on, 1 week off. In that case a train from Toronto to Northern Ontario would make more sense. It obviously wouldn't make sense if we're talking about a daily commute. Although most workers will probably opt to fly instead.

 

[micheal_can]

There was a number of dots being connected by some very tenuous lines. Even if infrastructure existed (which it doesn't- as pointed out) once the camp opens, workers aren't going to travel from Toronto to several hours north of Thunder Bay for their shifts.

The RoF is almost due north of Longlac.

I haven't really been closely following it but if I recalled correctly, the idea of a rail line to the RoF is dead. Any talk I see now is a haul road.

No, it still is in talks. It will take the actual opening of the mine to have it put in. The mine area isn't even started yet. We are at least 5 -10 years away from any serious need for rail. A road will be put in, but it is not going to be to haul ore. It will be used mainly to get what is needed to get it up and running. Just look how long it has taken the Goldcorp Gogama mine up and running.

The last I heard, the Chromium smelter is proposed for The Soo, but they plan to do earlier mining for the other minerals in order to start paying for the development, and they were to be processed at existing mills - I thought Sudbury. The whole thing has gone through some changes in ownership so plans may be evolving and I stopped closely following it.

Quite frankly, if the discovery had just been base and PG metals, I doubt the site would be developed. It is extremely remote and development costs astonishingly expensive. I don't know the proven or inferred reserves of any of it but I get the sense that the non-Chromium deposits alone wouldn't have made the site viable. It's one thing when your end product is measured in grams or ounces (gold, diamond, etc.) and another if it is in tons.

I have also heard Timmins. The Sudbury and Timmins areas can take the early stuff wile the Soo gets online.

As with many mines, There is a mineral that they use to pay for the mine, and there are the other minerals that give the companies the profit. For instance, Sudbury,the copper and nickel are the minerals that keep the mines open, but all the other minerals, like gold, iron, silver, etc. are the things that make the mines profitable.

I would imagine mining sites in the RoF would set their work schedules up in a way that's very similar with the oil sands in Alberta. 2 weeks on, 1 week off. In that case a train from Toronto to Northern Ontario would make more sense. It obviously wouldn't make sense if we're talking about a daily commute. Although most workers will probably opt to fly instead.

Even the mines in Northern ON, like the one in Gogama or Detour Gold have a 1 or 2 week in and out type schedule. It is only the existing mines in existing towns that are not like that. I would be surprised if the RoF was not set up in some sort of weekly rotation.

 

[lenaitch]

The RoF is almost due north of Longlac.

True, but that makes it still north of Thunder Bay. Where the owners use for an employee base remains to be seen. I would suspect that good percentage of workers would be FN from the surrounding communities.

No, it still is in talks. It will take the actual opening of the mine to have it put in. The mine area isn't even started yet. We are at least 5 -10 years away from any serious need for rail. A road will be put in, but it is not going to be to haul ore. It will be used mainly to get what is needed to get it up and running. Just look how long it has taken the Goldcorp Gogama mine up and running.

You could be right but I haven't read anything about rail since the early stages several years ago when it was under different ownership. You are correct that I used the term "haul road" incorrectly. The proposal for just a 'haul road', that would have no public access, was shut down by the local FNs rather quickly.

I have also heard Timmins. The Sudbury and Timmins areas can take the early stuff wile the Soo gets online.

Could be. The mill has to be specific (or modified) to the minerals being extracted. It would probably depend on mill capacity and what agreements they can reach. There is no Chromite mill in Canada.

Even for Timmins, Canada Nickle is apparently eyeing up the former Kidd Creek Met Site for its mill. It will be interesting to watch as there is a marketable amount of Chromium in their Crawford Lake site, which is huge. Along with Nickle, they have proven and inferred PG, Cobalt, Chromium and even Iron. If they get a mill running it could change the landscape for SSM. Crawford Lake wasn't on the radar when the RoF developers were doing their planning. That could be very good news for Ontario Northland.

The amount of environmental and consultive planning that is required in Canada now adds a lot of time to the development of a mine. The RoF is an extreme case.

Even the mines in Northern ON, like the one in Gogama or Detour Gold have a 1 or 2 week in and out type schedule. It is only the existing mines in existing towns that are not like that. I would be surprised if the RoF was not set up in some sort of weekly rotation.

Of course they will. There will be no new towns and it will be too far to drive. It will no doubt be similar to DeBeers former Victor Mine west of Attawapiskat. Its advantage was it didn't have to deal with an end product measured in tons.

 

[micheal_can]

True, but that makes it still north of Thunder Bay. Where the owners use for an employee base remains to be seen. I would suspect that good percentage of workers would be FN from the surrounding communities.

For Gogama, they use North Bay. Sudbury and Timmins. For Detour, they use Cochrane. I would guess that they would use somewhere like Hearst and Longlac as well as somewhere like Timmins or Thunder Bay for those that are flying. I suspect the only trains will be freight.

You could be right but I haven't read anything about rail since the early stages several years ago when it was under different ownership. You are correct that I used the term "haul road" incorrectly. The proposal for just a 'haul road', that would have no public access, was shut down by the local FNs rather quickly.

Imagine if the built the Bradford Bypass and it was only for commercial trucks.The local residents would be up in arms over it. No different for these communities. They currently are fly in/out.

Could be. The mill has to be specific (or modified) to the minerals being extracted. It would probably depend on mill capacity and what agreements they can reach. There is no Chromite mill in Canada.

Even for Timmins, Canada Nickle is apparently eyeing up the former Kidd Creek Met Site for its mill. It will be interesting to watch as there is a marketable amount of Chromium in their Crawford Lake site, which is huge. Along with Nickle, they have proven and inferred PG, Cobalt, Chromium and even Iron. If they get a mill running it could change the landscape for SSM. Crawford Lake wasn't on the radar when the RoF developers were doing their planning. That could be very good news for Ontario Northland.

The amount of environmental and consultive planning that is required in Canada now adds a lot of time to the development of a mine. The RoF is an extreme case.

the ONR does not own any of the existing tracks it will follow. No idea who will build the rail line.

Of course they will. There will be no new towns and it will be too far to drive. It will no doubt be similar to DeBeers former Victor Mine west of Attawapiskat. Its advantage was it didn't have to deal with an end product measured in tons.

That is why saying it will only have a haul road didn't make sense to me.

 

[lenaitch]

the ONR does not own any of the existing tracks it will follow. No idea who will build the rail line.

The point I was making was, if a Chromium mill was built in Timmins by the Crawford Lake folks, and they struck a deal with the RoF folks, concentrate could be shipped via CN from Nakina>Oba>Hearst then onto the ONR. As it stands now, if their own mill is built in SSM, they will still likely use CN to Oba. How ore gets from the RoF to some railhead (Nakina-ish) remains to be seen.

When much of the planning was started for the RoF, Crawford Lake was still at the prospector level. The mineral potential for the RoF was established in 2007. The reserves at Canada Nickle's Crawford Lake site were established around 2021/2022 and they are planning production for 2027.

That is why saying it will only have a haul road didn't make sense to me.

It was a proposal when the proponents were planning on funding it themselves. It wouldn't be a public road. That died a relatively quick death. If nothing else, if the public is permitted access, the proponents get to approach governments for funding assistance.

For Gogama, they use North Bay. Sudbury and Timmins. For Detour, they use Cochrane. I would guess that they would use somewhere like Hearst and Longlac as well as somewhere like Timmins or Thunder Bay for those that are flying. I suspect the only trains will be freight.

The one difference with those other places is a person can reasonably drive to them if they really (really) want to (Cochrane to Detour is about 185km on an existing road, which is roughly Gravenhurst to Toronto - although the road is better). The Ring of Fire is over 300 straight line 'on-a-map' km to either Nakina or Pickle Lake on a yet non-existent road.

 

[micheal_can]

The point I was making was, if a Chromium mill was built in Timmins by the Crawford Lake folks, and they struck a deal with the RoF folks, concentrate could be shipped via CN from Nakina>Oba>Hearst then onto the ONR. As it stands now, if their own mill is built in SSM, they will still likely use CN to Oba. How ore gets from the RoF to some railhead (Nakina-ish) remains to be seen.

When much of the planning was started for the RoF, Crawford Lake was still at the prospector level. The mineral potential for the RoF was established in 2007. The reserves at Canada Nickle's Crawford Lake site were established around 2021/2022 and they are planning production for 2027.

I don't know if the ONR would want to build a rail line that is orphaned from their system. It might be a rail line owned by the company like many other mines. Xtrata and Vale come to mind. CN may even see it as a financially good thing as well.

It was a proposal when the proponents were planning on funding it themselves. It wouldn't be a public road. That died a relatively quick death. If nothing else, if the public is permitted access, the proponents get to approach governments for funding assistance.

I know of the many proposals and the results of most of them. The road will be a public all weather year round road. It will not be the main way of hauling stuff in or out. That will be a new greenfield railway that has yet to have a named owner.

The one difference with those other places is a person can reasonably drive to them if they really (really) want to (Cochrane to Detour is about 185km on an existing road, which is roughly Gravenhurst to Toronto - although the road is better). The Ring of Fire is over 300 straight line 'on-a-map' km to either Nakina or Pickle Lake on a yet non-existent road.

So,the future road is going to be a Sudbury/North Bay to Toronto. Still, it would be odd to expect that the mine won't be running buses between various parking lots and their operations camp. Running a passenger train once a week would be an overly expensive ordeal. It will not surprise me that people would be bused. People will drive to their nearest parking lot if the pay is good enough.

 

[dowlingm]

While ONR does not currently service the area, there was a proposal at one point in the development to reinstate the Pagwa Subdivision (the part of it ONTC didn’t buy) between Calstock and Nakina, enabling ONR only service between Nakina and Timmins Met Site

Northern cities make a grab for the chromite ring

Ring of Fire developer Noront Resources receives community bid packages for smelter project

www.northernontariobusiness.com

 

[lenaitch]

I don't know if the ONR would want to build a rail line that is orphaned from their system. It might be a rail line owned by the company like many other mines. Xtrata and Vale come to mind. CN may even see it as a financially good thing as well.

Not even close to what I said, but sure.

I know of the many proposals and the results of most of them. The road will be a public all weather year round road. It will not be the main way of hauling stuff in or out. That will be a new greenfield railway that has yet to have a named owner.

Maybe you've been following it closer but I haven't seen mention of a railroad for at least a couple of years and that was a few owners ago.

So,the future road is going to be a Sudbury/North Bay to Toronto. Still, it would be odd to expect that the mine won't be running buses between various parking lots and their operations camp. Running a passenger train once a week would be an overly expensive ordeal. It will not surprise me that people would be bused. People will drive to their nearest parking lot if the pay is good enough.

Sure, if the proposed road is arrow-straight. I suspect it will be fly in/out. Musslewhite mine is ~195km road km from Pickle Lake and it is considered fly in/out.

 

[lenaitch]

While ONR does not currently service the area, there was a proposal at one point in the development to reinstate the Pagwa Subdivision (the part of it ONTC didn’t buy) between Calstock and Nakina, enabling ONR only service between Nakina and Timmins Met Site

Northern cities make a grab for the chromite ring

Ring of Fire developer Noront Resources receives community bid packages for smelter project

www.northernontariobusiness.com

Or, ore could be moved via rail from Nakina to Oba to Hearst without building a foot of new track.

 

[dowlingm]

Or, ore could be moved via rail from Nakina to Oba to Hearst without building a foot of new track.

Presumably there was a reason reinstatement was even mentioned given as you say the alternative routing

Should Ontario Northland be the railroader for the Ring of Fire?

Regional railway says it has the smarts, capability to serve James Bay mining camp

www.baytoday.ca

 

[micheal_can]

While ONR does not currently service the area, there was a proposal at one point in the development to reinstate the Pagwa Subdivision (the part of it ONTC didn’t buy) between Calstock and Nakina, enabling ONR only service between Nakina and Timmins Met Site

Northern cities make a grab for the chromite ring

Ring of Fire developer Noront Resources receives community bid packages for smelter project

www.northernontariobusiness.com

I forgot about that. Thank you for reminding me of it. To go to Timmins, the reactivation of that subdivision makes sense, mind you, it will be short lived since the main refinery will be in SSM which would make that subdivision useless. So, not sure it would be worth the cost unless other traffic would be seen for it.

Sure, if the proposed road is arrow-straight. I suspect it will be fly in/out. Musslewhite mine is ~195km road km from Pickle Lake and it is considered fly in/out.

Even then, it would be chartered, and likely out of somewhere like Timmins and/or Thunder Bay. Most of the stuff going in or out would most likely go by rail for that same reason. The only passenger rail might be would be a FN thing of a DMU. However, even then, not too sure of even that. Having a road is what the FN want. I know FN like the winter roads and will travel 12 hours each way.

 

[micheal_can]

Presumably there was a reason reinstatement was even mentioned given as you say the alternative routing

Should Ontario Northland be the railroader for the Ring of Fire?

Regional railway says it has the smarts, capability to serve James Bay mining camp

www.baytoday.ca

I remember this. Not much more seems to have come from it.
Maybe with the upcoming snap election we are expecting,Ford will use this as a way of trying to convince northerners that he is the best for them.

 

[dowlingm]

I remember this. Not much more seems to have come from it.
Maybe with the upcoming snap election we are expecting,Ford will use this as a way of trying to convince northerners that he is the best for them.

Doubtful, given that there has been no discussion of it in the intervening years. Just found it interesting.

 

[lenaitch]

Presumably there was a reason reinstatement was even mentioned given as you say the alternative routing

Should Ontario Northland be the railroader for the Ring of Fire?

Regional railway says it has the smarts, capability to serve James Bay mining camp

www.baytoday.ca

That was back when Noront was running the show and the ONR CEO was responding to an inquiry from them. If you read the 2017 article it links, that's where they talk about an east-west access road and a north-south 'haul road'. Even in that article, they mention that a rail line (raised early by KW Resources who are no longer in the picture) would not be financially viable with the tonnage they are estimating.