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Montréal Transit Developments

SFO-YYZ

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Sorry, late in the conversation here, but could someone explain of the current STM Metro is able to achieve full driverless / autonomous operations, as it is with the current infrastructure and rollingstock in place? Or further upgrades are still needed? If we are able to achieve that today, is there a valid reason why we still need a manual operator/attendant in the front cab of each Azur train, other than union requirements to keep jobs in place?

My impression is that when trains approach stations, STM Metros is already achieving full automation. For example on the Orange Line, trains are already stopping at designated parameters that are directly aligned with the door markers on each platform with great accuracy. At least in that part of the operation, it requires very little human intervention and hence why STM can proceed with their platform screen door project on Orange Line.
 

NoahB

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Sorry, late in the conversation here, but could someone explain of the current STM Metro is able to achieve full driverless / autonomous operations, as it is with the current infrastructure and rollingstock in place? Or further upgrades are still needed? If we are able to achieve that today, is there a valid reason why we still need a manual operator/attendant in the front cab of each Azur train, other than union requirements to keep jobs in place?

My impression is that when trains approach stations, STM Metros is already achieving full automation. For example on the Orange Line, trains are already stopping at designated parameters that are directly aligned with the door markers on each platform with great accuracy. At least in that part of the operation, it requires very little human intervention and hence why STM can proceed with their platform screen door project on Orange Line.

I don't have concrete information. But this uncited excerpt on Wikipedia might hold a clue.
Trains are programmed to stop at certain station positions with a precise odometer (accurate to plus or minus five centimetres, 2"). They receive their braking program and station stop positions orders (one-third, two-thirds, or end of station) from track beacons prior to entering the station, with additional beacons in the station for ensuring stop precision. The last beacon is positioned at precisely 12 turns of wheels from the end of the platform, which help improve the overall precision of the system.[citation needed]
It seems that the train is controlled by beacons on the track and not directly by a command center like what I see in all GoA4 systems I know of. Other restrictions might be that the tracks don't have an intrusion detection system. And also there is a fire department/safety thing going on that severely limits the number of trains within the tunnels between stations. (a train is not allowed to leave a station until the train ahead arrives at the next station.)

Does anyone have more concrete info on this?
 

nfitz

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Sorry, late in the conversation here, but could someone explain of the current STM Metro is able to achieve full driverless / autonomous operations, as it is with the current infrastructure and rollingstock in place? Or further upgrades are still needed? If we are able to achieve that today, is there a valid reason why we still need a manual operator/attendant in the front cab of each Azur train, other than union requirements to keep jobs in place?
They Metro has been operating using ATC since the mid-1970s, using the original 1960s and 1970s rolling stock. The automation was part of the 1970s expansion of the system. I'm sure you've seen the metro trains arriving with the driver sat reading the newspaper, and not even looking out the window ... that was certainly common in the early 1980s.

The driver closes the door, and as far as I know, just presses the button to let the system take over. Essentially the driver is there to close the doors and press the button. And contingencies. (which makes me wonder what the second driver used to do ... perhaps got a nap until the train changed direction).

The Scarborough RT used to work in a similar manner didn't it, in the 1980s, when it was new?
 

p_xavier

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I don't have concrete information. But this uncited excerpt on Wikipedia might hold a clue.

It seems that the train is controlled by beacons on the track and not directly by a command center like what I see in all GoA4 systems I know of. Other restrictions might be that the tracks don't have an intrusion detection system. And also there is a fire department/safety thing going on that severely limits the number of trains within the tunnels between stations. (a train is not allowed to leave a station until the train ahead arrives at the next station.)

Does anyone have more concrete info on this?
The beacons send a number to the train of how many wheel turns are needed to reach the next station. This is controlled by the command center but not the trains directly. i.e. a train can't be guided automatically remotely; there still needs to be an operator.

The limit of one train per interstation is there because most interstations are in a U shape, thus when a trains loses power and automatic braking fails, it wouldn't crash with another vehicle in the tunnel. That limitation could be removed with other designs.
 
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superelevation

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You misunderstand me. I didn't say it wasn't light rail.


Eglinton Line only has equal capacity to Canada Line, if you make a lot of assumptions, such as much more frequent trains on one instead of the other, replacement (or at least rebuilding) existing trains, and assumptions about about being able to maintain frequent service with crush capacity, rather than design capacity.

One challenge is that this new east-west light rail is going to have, like at Bloor station, is a huge number of people getting out at the terminus, and at the interchange station near Berri. The train being shorter isn't going to impact the dwell time much, with the biggest bottleneck being getting people out of the train ... which is primarily a function of the number of people who have to walk through the door. I suppose you could help this by putting on even more doors - similar to the old Montreal Metro cars. But the trend has for some reason to go for less doors.

Hopefully they use centre and side platforms at the terminus and station at Berri to address this.
The point is it *isn't* light rail, referring to something as light rail is already generally bad because light rail is not a concrete term, it has many interpretations - but especially on a Toronto forum where "light rail" means a tram or something with tram rolling stock calling a light metro an LRT is doing it a big disservice.

Eglinton Line has the same capacity as Canada Line based on official documents. Ridership data indeed suggested the CL will be able to handle those numbers, Eglinton is going to struggle given how poor the door arrangement and circulation on it's trains are.
 

NoahB

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New News post from teh REM site. Has some nice renders.

Work begins on the North Shore and in Pierrefonds-Roxboro | REM

"Sample model of an REM rail overpass (O’Brien area in Saint-Laurent)":
1611016065088.png


Station Renderings GIF:
 

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nfitz

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Gosh ... look how tightly they are packed in there. I'm surprised that's legal in a Quebec workplace currently. We can't do that here!
 

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