Montréal Transit Developments

[nfitz]

It's not LRT? Where did you even get this?

You misunderstand me. I didn't say it wasn't light rail.

The whole reason that single vehicles can be used is that they will run highly frequently and be automated - you are missing the point of this. That goes out the window with this idea. Look at the Canada Line - same capacity as Eglinton with trains roughly 50% as long.

Eglinton Line only has equal capacity to Canada Line, if you make a lot of assumptions, such as much more frequent trains on one instead of the other, replacement (or at least rebuilding) existing trains, and assumptions about about being able to maintain frequent service with crush capacity, rather than design capacity.

One challenge is that this new east-west light rail is going to have, like at Bloor station, is a huge number of people getting out at the terminus, and at the interchange station near Berri. The train being shorter isn't going to impact the dwell time much, with the biggest bottleneck being getting people out of the train ... which is primarily a function of the number of people who have to walk through the door. I suppose you could help this by putting on even more doors - similar to the old Montreal Metro cars. But the trend has for some reason to go for less doors.

Hopefully they use centre and side platforms at the terminus and station at Berri to address this.

 

[asher__jo]

It's almost like the term Light Rail Transit is a slur.

 

[afransen]

LRT is fine, if it stays in its lane: cheap, better-than-bus service.

When the decision was made to tunnel a significant portion of Crosstown because of the width of Eglinton in midtown, it should have prompted a rethink of the technology and ROW for the rest of the line.

 

[felix123]

I think we will be seeing fully automated streetcars very soon, like in the next 10 years easily.

Somewhere in the world, yes - but in Toronto, no. We didn't even make use of the driverless capability of our ICTS trains on Line 3, which has been available to us for decades. I would hope that we first get logical signal priority at intersections so that a streetcar carrying 100 passengers will finally be allowed to proceed before a car with one occupant can make their left turn.

The point is moot in this discussion anyway - Montreal has already begun building its driverless transit infrastructure, while in Toronto we haven't yet confirmed plans for it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Somewhere in the world, yes - but in Toronto, no. We didn't even make use of the driverless capability of our ICTS trains on Line 3, which has been available to us for decades. I would hope that we first get logical signal priority at intersections so that a streetcar carrying 100 passengers will finally be allowed to proceed before a car with one occupant can make their left turn.

The point is moot in this discussion anyway - Montreal has already begun building its driverless transit infrastructure, while in Toronto we haven't yet confirmed plans for it.

How about reading about Automatic Train Control at this link.

The Toronto Transit Commission is re-signaling Line 1 (Yonge-University-Spadina) to improve reliability and capacity on Canada’s busiest subway system. To complete the installation, commissioning and testing of Automatic Train Control (ATC), the TTC will close portions of the subway during some weekends....

 

[felix123]

How about reading about Automatic Train Control at this link.

There are no plans to use ATC to make Line 1 driverless.

 

[robmausser]

There are no plans to use ATC to make Line 1 driverless.

Thats wrong. Once Line 1 is entirely ATC operation it will be driverless; albeit one employee will still sit in the driver seat to operate the doors.

Currently there are 2 employees, one to operate the doors and one to drive.

Having 2 employees currently is a useless union requirment, and so is the 1 driver with ATC.

But, the trains will drive themselves, the employee isn't a driver, they are a "sit there and open the doors" operator.

And I guess to make sure nothing goes wrong with the ATC. I mean, the Skytrain has operated driverless since 1985 without a single major accident, and in 1995 driver negligence on the TTC subway killed a bunch of people and injured hundreds of others, but hey, whatever

 

[felix123]

Thats wrong. Once Line 1 is entirely ATC operation it will be driverless; albeit one employee will still sit in the driver seat to operate the doors.

Currently there are 2 employees, one to operate the doors and one to drive.

Having 2 employees currently is a useless union requirment, and so is the 1 driver with ATC.

But, the trains will drive themselves, the employee isn't a driver, they are a "sit there and open the doors" operator.

And I guess to make sure nothing goes wrong with the ATC. I mean, the Skytrain has operated driverless since 1985 without a single major accident, and in 1995 driver negligence on the TTC subway killed a bunch of people and injured hundreds of others, but hey, whatever

That's wrong - if it were correct, Montreal's existing metro would already be considered "driverless".

If we're going to be pedantic: instead of driverless, we could say automated. But either term refers to having no train operator whatsoever, which is how the REM will operate.

 

[robmausser]

That's wrong - if it were correct, Montreal's existing metro would already be considered "driverless".

If we're going to be pedantic: instead of driverless, we could say automated. But either term refers to having no train operator whatsoever, which is how the REM will operate.

The difference between the two is that a human being is sitting in a chair not doing anything to control the train and you are calling ME pedantic... LOL

 

[NoahB]

The difference between the two is that a human being is sitting in a chair not doing anything to control the train and you are calling ME pedantic... LOL

Driverless, in this case, is referring to GoA4 level automation, which means the train handles everything itself. While you are talking about GoA2 level automation, where you still have an operator 'driving the doors' and pushing the 'start driving' button at each station like in Montreal's Metro. That train operator will be responsible for driving the train in emergencies during GoA2 operation. A GoA4 can automatically go to the nearest safe station or wait for instructions from the control center without anyone needing to be present inside the train. GoA2 will literally shut down the whole train/line if the driver does not press the start button at each station - an emergency measure.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The "employee" in the train does not have to "sit" in the chair for the whole trip. They can stand, stretch their legs, talk to passengers or the control centre, check on passengers, etc..

 

[Deadpool X]

The "employee" in the train does not have to "sit" in the chair for the whole trip. They can stand, stretch their legs, talk to passengers or the control centre, check on passengers, etc..

That's GoA 3 where there is an attendant in the train for emergency purposes but not necessarily on the driver's seat. It's also called Driverless Train Operation. (DTO)

GoA 4 means there is no employee whatsoever in the train. Also called, Unattended Train Operation (UTO)

TTC is working to reach GoA 2 which is Semi-Automatic Train Operation (STO). Unlike the name, the trains don't run fully automated. As people have mentioned above, an operator needs to sit on the driver seat and press buttons or open and close the doors . They can't be away from their seat. Although they can afford to be distracted without serious consequences.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That's GoA 3 where there is an attendant in the train for emergency purposes but not necessarily on the driver's seat. It's also called Driverless Train Operation. (DTO)

GoA 4 means there is no employee whatsoever in the train. Also called, Unattended Train Operation (UTO)

TTC is working to reach GoA 2 which is Semi-Automatic Train Operation (STO). Unlike the name, the trains don't run fully automated. As people have mentioned above, an operator needs to sit on the driver seat and press buttons or open and close the doors . They can't be away from their seat. Although they can afford to be distracted without serious consequences.

They can act as an "attendant". Ready to step in for an emergency.

 

[afransen]

I think the idea is to eliminate drivers to reduce the dependency on 'attendant' scheduling and labour cost from providing service, in addition to providing more predictable and reliable service.

There's lots of driving and operating to do out there. No need to fret about keeping people on the train.

 

[officedweller]

Driverless trains also do not have cabs - they have a flip out control panel if needed for manual operation.