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Montréal Transit Developments

nfitz

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niftz I believe you are referring to the station at Robert Bourassa and RL?
University last time I walked down that bit. It's called Bonaventure further south.

Oh ... looks like it has been renamed recently.

Really? You create confusion over this? Wow ... it's still called University just a bit further north.

What a bizarre renaming. Keeping Dorchester in Westmount was because it's a different city, and voted against the change. But why rename only part of a street?!?

LOL ... the intersection of Bourassa and Levesque ... was that deliberate?
 

SFO-YYZ

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University last time I walked down that bit. It's called Bonaventure further south.

Oh ... looks like it has been renamed recently.

Really? You create confusion over this? Wow ... it's still called University just a bit further north.

What a bizarre renaming. Keeping Dorchester in Westmount was because it's a different city, and voted against the change. But why rename only part of a street?!?

LOL ... the intersection of Bourassa and Levesque ... was that deliberate?
Times change. We no longer in the 70s. Street renamings happen all the time, even in beloved Ontario. It's only confusing because you've moved to TO and haven't lived in MTL since...? :cool:

Anyway, I digress. The future western Terminus for REM-B will be Robert-Bourassa, located on Robert-Bourassa Blvd.
 

nfitz

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Times change. We no longer in the 70s. Street renamings happen all the time, even in beloved Ontario. It's only confusing because you've moved to TO and haven't lived in MTL since...? :cool:
I just haven't walked over University recently ... I was walking alone Rene-Levesque from Central (Metcalfe?) westwards not long before lockdown started. And wandering near Bonaventure during the summer (well the last summer worth mentioning :) )

I think you are incorrect when you say it was renamed in the 1970s. Must have been in the last few years.

Which makes me wonder how you were unaware that it used to be called University! You must be a recent transplant.
 

henrydm

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I just haven't walked over University recently ... I was walking alone Rene-Levesque from Central (Metcalfe?) westwards not long before lockdown started. And wandering near Bonaventure during the summer (well the last summer worth mentioning :) )

I think you are incorrect when you say it was renamed in the 1970s. Must have been in the last few years.

Which makes me wonder how you were unaware that it used to be called University! You must be a recent transplant.
My grandparents say university, and my parents some times, most people know it as both, but under 30 year olds its Robert Bourrassa
 

nfitz

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My grandparents say university, and my parents some times, most people know it as both, but under 30 year olds its Robert Bourrassa
It was not renamed 30 years ago ... it was surely recent. I certainly haven't walked past it since it was renamed.
 

Necessary Evil

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Bourassa_Boulevard_—_University_Street

On August 27, 2014, Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre announced that the part of University Street through Downtown Montreal would be renamed Robert Bourassa Boulevard, after former Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa. The portion of the street stretches from Notre Dame to Sherbrooke Street. Only a small section of the street, between McGill University and the former Royal Victoria Hospital, would retain its original name. The official change took place on March 15, 2015.
 

officedweller

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I don't think that's comparable to downtown Montreal. They tunnelled the original Expo line and the Canada line in downtown Vancouver. Why didn't they elevate that? That would be comparable.

The Expo Line downtown was built re-using the old Dunsmuir Tunnel - akin to the use of the Mount Royal Tunnel by the REM - major cost saving measure. The new bit of tunnel is at Stadium Station - to re-orient the tunnel enrance from facing south to BC Place Stadium to facing directly east.

Canada Line was built is a more politically sensitive era (wrt Cambie Blvd) and downtown streets do not have the width to support an elavted line (although elevated was considered for the route downtown (via the Expo site and Gastown) and on Cambie in the early 1990s when SkyTrain was first proposed to Richmond).
 

officedweller

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Yeah, a median allignment for a elevated guideway tends to be the most imposing
- but the bulk only appears at station sites, so those sites and integration would have to be chosen carefully
(ie near or integrated with newer buildings).

The guideway will have to be taller to allow a mezzanine level to provide ciculation to both platforms (assuming outside platforms to keep the guideway columns straight). Ideally, you would tie the mezzanine walkway into adjacent office buildings, so station entrances are in existing facades.

Another option is to reconfigure RL Blvd to create a park down one side with the REM Est above and "side-of-road" stations which are shorter and more human scale..

This is a quick rendering of the elevated REM-B on the current Rene-Levesque boulevard done by a local engineer (important to consider the impact not only of the rail lines but the large station footprint and how they impact surrounding high rises):

For SkyTrain, the nicest median station (there aren't many) is Brentwood Town Centre (80m platform) - which also shows that the platform supports can be cantilvered from the guideway structure. Note how tall it is to allow a mezzanine below.
For the REM Est, with 40m platforms, the escalators and stairs could be at the ends of the platforms, reducing the bulk directly under the platforms (but having the mezzanine below allows easier elevator access).

PS - Honolulu has some of the most convoluted median/mezzanine stations.

Brentwood Station:





I don't know Montreal that well, but looking at GoogleMaps and this system diagram, it looks like Dufesne could be a "side of road" station on greenspce, so there would be 4 median / mezzanine stations - Cartier, LaBelle, St. Urbain and Robert Bourassa. Cartier looks to be a distrct, so hard to tell where the station might be located. There are lots of CBC studios in the area.




At Robert Bourassa, I could see a mezzanine landing either into the podium of Place Ville Marie (though probably heritage protected) or onto the adjacent parkette (one side of street only):



At St. Urbain, I could see the station mezzanine landing in the blank concrete podium on the right of this shot:



At LaBelle, I could see the peach coloured hotel being demolished for a station entrance.



Everegreen Line in the median of North Road on the right of this shot.
Not a massive presence away from stations (but this is a low level guideway).

Lougheed Mall (City of Lougheed) redevelopment from Glotman Simpson twitter via ITC posted Dec 22nd:

https://twitter.com/GlotmanSimpson
 
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SFO-YYZ

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Yeah, a median allignment for a elevated guideway tends to be the most imposing
- but the bulk only appears at station sites, so those sites and integration would have to be chosen carefully
(ie near or integrated with newer buildings).

The guideway will have to be taller to allow a mezzanine level to provide ciculation to both platforms (assuming outside platforms to keep the guideway columns straight). Ideally, you would tie the mezzanine walkway into adjacent office buildings, so station entrances are in existing facades.

Another option is to reconfigure RL Blvd to create a park down one side with the REM Est above and "side-of-road" stations which are shorter and more human scale..



For SkyTrain, the nicest median station (there aren't many) is Brentwood Town Centre (80m platform) - which also shows that the platform supports can be cantilvered from the guideway structure. Note how tall it is to allow a mezzanine below.
For the REM Est, with 40m platforms, the escalators and stairs could be at the ends of the platforms, reducing the bulk directly under the platforms (but having the mezzanine below allows easier elevator access).

PS - Honolulu has some of the most convoluted median/mezzanine stations.

Brentwood Station:





I don't know Montreal that well, but looking at GoogleMaps and this system diagram, it looks like Dufesne could be a "side of road" station on greenspce, so there would be 4 median / mezzanine stations - Cartier, LaBelle, St. Urbain and Robert Bourassa. Cartier looks to be a disytrct, so hard to tell where the station might be located. There are lots of CBC studios in the area.




At Robert Bourassa, I could see a mezzanine landing either into the podium of Place Ville Marie (though probbaly heritage protected) or onto the adjacent parkette (one side of street only):



At St. Urbain, I could see the station mezzanine landing in the blank concrete podium on the right of this shot:



At LaBelle, I could see the peach coloured hotel being demolished for a station entrance.



Everegreen Line in the median of North Road on the right of this shot.
Not a massive presence away from stations (but this is a low level guideway).

Lougheed Mall (City of Lougheed) redevelopment from Glotman Simpson twitter via ITC posted Dec 22nd:

https://twitter.com/GlotmanSimpson
I like the Brentwood setup. It's also my favorite station aesthetically on the skytrain network. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a model we can replicate on RL. The difference with Brentwood (and a lot of other Skytrain extensions) is that in Vancouver, the many of the surrounding high rises, condos, etc. are built concurrently with Skytrain, hence allowing architects to integrate them into Skytrain lines - "hugging" the station to create a more seamless architectural experience. Where as on RL, it's very much a different situation.

I would really like to see an elevated alignment work on RL, but I'm also not opposed to tunneling it underground (I've yet to see a detailed costing of underground alignment). Afterall, RL is one of the busiest streets in the downtown of the 2nd largest city in Canada - let's build something that can stand the test of time.
 
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nfitz

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I like the Brentwood setup. It's also my favorite station aesthetically on the skytrain network. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a model we can replicate on RL. The difference with Brentwood (and a lot of other Skytrain extensions) is that in Vancouver, the many of the surrounding high rises, condos, etc. are built concurrently with Skytrain, hence allowing architects to integrate them into Skytrain lines - "hugging" the station to create a more seamless architectural experience. Where as on RL, it's very much a different situation.
West of Berri. But I didn't think Lévesque was that redeveloped east of Berri - but still has the width. Presumably it will all be rebuilt in the decades ahead, allowing for the kind of integration you see in Vancouver.

Which certainly wasn't there when I first rode the Expo line in 1990 ... seemed a bit of a wasteland, where it's now a very different environment!
 

robmausser

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Considering the low ridership requirement and only needing "2 car trains" and the REM 2 not being a part of the REM network, I wonder if going with skinny 4 car trains on a narrow gauge would be better.

This would allow for a smaller and skinnier elevated guideway, and a single bore tunnel for the underground portions.
 

officedweller

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There aren't many elevated SkyTrain stations that have walkways integrated into adjacent buildings, and where there are, the stations are usually "side-of-road" stations where the development can come right up to the station building (Marine Gateway and New Westminster Stations come to mind, and maybe Gilmore in future). Aberdeen Station has an overhead walkway to one of its outside platforms that was added when an adajcent retail mall was built.

Brentwood is the only middle-of-road station with walkways over the street (there's no entrance to the south - that will await redevelopment there).

Metrotown is similar, but is located in a former interurban RoW between adjcent streets (not a median) so there's space for passengers coming down to grade under the guideway. The elevated walkway was removed during station renovations and if replaced, won't be the primary entrance, as it would lead to elevators and staircases, not escalators.

Generally, SkyTrain avoids middle-of-road stations.

There is really only one place where SkyTrain comes really close of older taller existing buildings
- downtown New Westminster. I doubt it would be allowed again.
When the line was built, it ended at an elevated tail track just east of New Westminster Station.
For the 1990 extension with the SkyBridge, they dove in into a trench for Columbia Station just east of the old law courts and then to the bridge.

Expo Line (1986) over Clarkson St, New Westminster:











The red brick building is the former law courts.








Here's a 1987 shot showing the tailtrack was what buildings existed at the time:

 
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superelevation

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Stop citing much more suburban examples and equating that as equal to a much more urban/historic/dense/walkable street.

Should see what stuff exists in central areas of Tokyo and London . . .

Given the relatively small vehicles, a better, and cheaper, solution might be to put the LRT in the median into downtown, and not grade-separate it. Shouldn't be much penalty to travel times if they put in the right traffic controls, and don't resist the temptation to add extra stops.

It's not LRT? Where did you even get this? I noticed you said that in the other thread too, REM is a Metro it's just branded separately from the existing one. This matters because you aren't just going to run a metro train (much less an automated one) down the middle of the street. Theres a reason CDPQ doesn't want to . . .

No - Eglinton is designed for 90-metre trains. This line is talking about a single 40-metre vehicle. A simple 40 or 45-metre Flexity streetcar would serve the demand.

If the only alternative is underground (because of public objection to elevated downtown), it seems reasonable.

Recall the uproar when Doug Ford proposed building elevated transit down Front Street downtown! It's a tough sell.

By definition, J-walking is crossing against a signal. You literally can't J-walk when there's no signal!

That aside ... I would suggest prohibiting left turns (and why not, they are prohibited mostly on many downtown streets), and limiting them to the one-way streets instead.

I keep being told by so many people who must know better than me, that we'll be having fully automated automobiles down soon. How then is automated rolling stock not an option before then? :)

The whole reason that single vehicles can be used is that they will run highly frequently and be automated - you are missing the point of this. That goes out the window with this idea. Look at the Canada Line - same capacity as Eglinton with trains roughly 50% as long.

he SkyBridge, they dove in into a t

New West is often considered one of the best stations on the SkyTrain network and honestly the section there is not a big deal . . .
 

SFO-YYZ

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There aren't many elevated SkyTrain stations that have walkways integrated into adjacent buildings, and where there are, the stations are usually "side-of-road" stations where the development can come right up to the station building (Marine Gateway and New Westminster Stations come to mind, and maybe Gilmore in future). Aberdeen Station has an overhead walkway to one of its outside platforms that was added when an adajcent retail mall was built.

Brentwood is the only middle-of-road station with walkways over the street (there's no entrance to the south - that will await redevelopment there).

Metrotown is similar, but is located in a former interurban RoW between adjcent streets (not a median) so there's space for passengers coming down to grade under the guideway. The elevated walkway was removed during station renovations and if replaced, won't be the primary entrance, as it would lead to elevators and staircases, not escalators.

Generally, SkyTrain avoids middle-of-road stations.

There is really only one place where SkyTrain comes really close of older taller existing buildings
- downtown New Westminster. I doubt it would be allowed again.
When the line was built, it ended at an elevated tail track just east of New Westminster Station.
For the 1990 extension with the SkyBridge, they dove in into a trench for Columbia Station just east of the old law courts and then to the bridge.

Expo Line (1986) over Clarkson St, New Westminster:











The red brick building is the former law courts.








Here's a 1987 shot showing the tailtrack was what buildings existed at the time:


I think the 1987 picture says a lot about the density at the time Skytrain was built in New Westminster. Like you said, it was allowed at then because there was much less density then, but very unlikely it would be approved today.

1610212924731.png

Furthermore, I really like the layout of New Westminster's historic downtown, but it's by no means comparable to the level of density in downtown Montreal's RL boulevard. For one, back in the late 80s, the building heights around the Skytrain tracks are quite low (no more than 3-10 storeys tall for most buildings) - there isn't a deep urban canyon like what we see in Montreal's RL, especially in the section west of Berri (it might work east of Berri there's slightly less density around the CBC lands). Also, as someone mentioned earlier, the elevated alignment in downtown Montreal on RL Boulevard will likely face a series of court challenges due to its proximity to structures with Heritage Preservation status (there are at least 11 heritage protected buildings located on RL boulevard that border the proposed elevated route). Once again, while I really like Vancouver's Skytrain build out, I don't think its experience is especially applicable to REM-B's current downtown alignment. As we all know, Vancouver and Montreal evolved and grew under very different circumstances and eras (with the formernot coming of age until perhaps the last 2 decades).

1610213838186.png


1610213924084.png


1610214185025.png
 

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