Montréal Transit Developments

[officedweller]

I don't think that's comparable to downtown Montreal. They tunnelled the original Expo line and the Canada line in downtown Vancouver. Why didn't they elevate that? That would be comparable.

The Expo Line downtown was built re-using the old Dunsmuir Tunnel - akin to the use of the Mount Royal Tunnel by the REM - major cost saving measure. The new bit of tunnel is at Stadium Station - to re-orient the tunnel enrance from facing south to BC Place Stadium to facing directly east.

Canada Line was built is a more politically sensitive era (wrt Cambie Blvd) and downtown streets do not have the width to support an elavted line (although elevated was considered for the route downtown (via the Expo site and Gastown) and on Cambie in the early 1990s when SkyTrain was first proposed to Richmond).

 

[officedweller]

Yeah, a median allignment for a elevated guideway tends to be the most imposing
- but the bulk only appears at station sites, so those sites and integration would have to be chosen carefully
(ie near or integrated with newer buildings).

The guideway will have to be taller to allow a mezzanine level to provide ciculation to both platforms (assuming outside platforms to keep the guideway columns straight). Ideally, you would tie the mezzanine walkway into adjacent office buildings, so station entrances are in existing facades.

Another option is to reconfigure RL Blvd to create a park down one side with the REM Est above and "side-of-road" stations which are shorter and more human scale..

This is a quick rendering of the elevated REM-B on the current Rene-Levesque boulevard done by a local engineer (important to consider the impact not only of the rail lines but the large station footprint and how they impact surrounding high rises):

For SkyTrain, the nicest median station (there aren't many) is Brentwood Town Centre (80m platform) - which also shows that the platform supports can be cantilvered from the guideway structure. Note how tall it is to allow a mezzanine below.
For the REM Est, with 40m platforms, the escalators and stairs could be at the ends of the platforms, reducing the bulk directly under the platforms (but having the mezzanine below allows easier elevator access).

PS - Honolulu has some of the most convoluted median/mezzanine stations.

Brentwood Station:

1000158849-1000267105 - Canadian Architect

www.canadianarchitect.com

Burnaby Builds A City – 1

Burnaby at Brentwood has gone full urban. This is the Lougheed Highway at Willingdon – one the signature crossroads of our region. On the right, a massive mixed-use development called (awful…

pricetags.ca

I don't know Montreal that well, but looking at GoogleMaps and this system diagram, it looks like Dufesne could be a "side of road" station on greenspce, so there would be 4 median / mezzanine stations - Cartier, LaBelle, St. Urbain and Robert Bourassa. Cartier looks to be a distrct, so hard to tell where the station might be located. There are lots of CBC studios in the area.

At Robert Bourassa, I could see a mezzanine landing either into the podium of Place Ville Marie (though probably heritage protected) or onto the adjacent parkette (one side of street only):

Google Maps

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At St. Urbain, I could see the station mezzanine landing in the blank concrete podium on the right of this shot:

Google Maps

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At LaBelle, I could see the peach coloured hotel being demolished for a station entrance.

Google Maps

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Everegreen Line in the median of North Road on the right of this shot.
Not a massive presence away from stations (but this is a low level guideway).

Lougheed Mall (City of Lougheed) redevelopment from Glotman Simpson twitter via ITC posted Dec 22nd:

https://twitter.com/GlotmanSimpson

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Yeah, a median allignment for a elevated guideway tends to be the most imposing
- but the bulk only appears at station sites, so those sites and integration would have to be chosen carefully
(ie near or integrated with newer buildings).

The guideway will have to be taller to allow a mezzanine level to provide ciculation to both platforms (assuming outside platforms to keep the guideway columns straight). Ideally, you would tie the mezzanine walkway into adjacent office buildings, so station entrances are in existing facades.

Another option is to reconfigure RL Blvd to create a park down one side with the REM Est above and "side-of-road" stations which are shorter and more human scale..



For SkyTrain, the nicest median station (there aren't many) is Brentwood Town Centre (80m platform) - which also shows that the platform supports can be cantilvered from the guideway structure. Note how tall it is to allow a mezzanine below.
For the REM Est, with 40m platforms, the escalators and stairs could be at the ends of the platforms, reducing the bulk directly under the platforms (but having the mezzanine below allows easier elevator access).

PS - Honolulu has some of the most convoluted median/mezzanine stations.

Brentwood Station:

1000158849-1000267105 - Canadian Architect

www.canadianarchitect.com

Burnaby Builds A City – 1

Burnaby at Brentwood has gone full urban. This is the Lougheed Highway at Willingdon – one the signature crossroads of our region. On the right, a massive mixed-use development called (awful…

pricetags.ca

I don't know Montreal that well, but looking at GoogleMaps and this system diagram, it looks like Dufesne could be a "side of road" station on greenspce, so there would be 4 median / mezzanine stations - Cartier, LaBelle, St. Urbain and Robert Bourassa. Cartier looks to be a disytrct, so hard to tell where the station might be located. There are lots of CBC studios in the area.

At Robert Bourassa, I could see a mezzanine landing either into the podium of Place Ville Marie (though probbaly heritage protected) or onto the adjacent parkette (one side of street only):

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

At St. Urbain, I could see the station mezzanine landing in the blank concrete podium on the right of this shot:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

At LaBelle, I could see the peach coloured hotel being demolished for a station entrance.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Everegreen Line in the median of North Road on the right of this shot.
Not a massive presence away from stations (but this is a low level guideway).

Lougheed Mall (City of Lougheed) redevelopment from Glotman Simpson twitter via ITC posted Dec 22nd:

https://twitter.com/GlotmanSimpson

I like the Brentwood setup. It's also my favorite station aesthetically on the skytrain network. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a model we can replicate on RL. The difference with Brentwood (and a lot of other Skytrain extensions) is that in Vancouver, the many of the surrounding high rises, condos, etc. are built concurrently with Skytrain, hence allowing architects to integrate them into Skytrain lines - "hugging" the station to create a more seamless architectural experience. Where as on RL, it's very much a different situation.

I would really like to see an elevated alignment work on RL, but I'm also not opposed to tunneling it underground (I've yet to see a detailed costing of underground alignment). Afterall, RL is one of the busiest streets in the downtown of the 2nd largest city in Canada - let's build something that can stand the test of time.

 

[nfitz]

I like the Brentwood setup. It's also my favorite station aesthetically on the skytrain network. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a model we can replicate on RL. The difference with Brentwood (and a lot of other Skytrain extensions) is that in Vancouver, the many of the surrounding high rises, condos, etc. are built concurrently with Skytrain, hence allowing architects to integrate them into Skytrain lines - "hugging" the station to create a more seamless architectural experience. Where as on RL, it's very much a different situation.

West of Berri. But I didn't think Lévesque was that redeveloped east of Berri - but still has the width. Presumably it will all be rebuilt in the decades ahead, allowing for the kind of integration you see in Vancouver.

Which certainly wasn't there when I first rode the Expo line in 1990 ... seemed a bit of a wasteland, where it's now a very different environment!

 

[robmausser]

Considering the low ridership requirement and only needing "2 car trains" and the REM 2 not being a part of the REM network, I wonder if going with skinny 4 car trains on a narrow gauge would be better.

This would allow for a smaller and skinnier elevated guideway, and a single bore tunnel for the underground portions.

 

[officedweller]

There aren't many elevated SkyTrain stations that have walkways integrated into adjacent buildings, and where there are, the stations are usually "side-of-road" stations where the development can come right up to the station building (Marine Gateway and New Westminster Stations come to mind, and maybe Gilmore in future). Aberdeen Station has an overhead walkway to one of its outside platforms that was added when an adajcent retail mall was built.

Brentwood is the only middle-of-road station with walkways over the street (there's no entrance to the south - that will await redevelopment there).

Metrotown is similar, but is located in a former interurban RoW between adjcent streets (not a median) so there's space for passengers coming down to grade under the guideway. The elevated walkway was removed during station renovations and if replaced, won't be the primary entrance, as it would lead to elevators and staircases, not escalators.

Generally, SkyTrain avoids middle-of-road stations.

There is really only one place where SkyTrain comes really close of older taller existing buildings
- downtown New Westminster. I doubt it would be allowed again.
When the line was built, it ended at an elevated tail track just east of New Westminster Station.
For the 1990 extension with the SkyBridge, they dove in into a trench for Columbia Station just east of the old law courts and then to the bridge.

Expo Line (1986) over Clarkson St, New Westminster:

The red brick building is the former law courts.

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Here's a 1987 shot showing the tailtrack was what buildings existed at the time:

https://globalairphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/canada_bc_new_westminster_1987_02_24-0401.jpg

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[superelevation]

Stop citing much more suburban examples and equating that as equal to a much more urban/historic/dense/walkable street.

Should see what stuff exists in central areas of Tokyo and London . . .

Given the relatively small vehicles, a better, and cheaper, solution might be to put the LRT in the median into downtown, and not grade-separate it. Shouldn't be much penalty to travel times if they put in the right traffic controls, and don't resist the temptation to add extra stops.

It's not LRT? Where did you even get this? I noticed you said that in the other thread too, REM is a Metro it's just branded separately from the existing one. This matters because you aren't just going to run a metro train (much less an automated one) down the middle of the street. Theres a reason CDPQ doesn't want to . . .

No - Eglinton is designed for 90-metre trains. This line is talking about a single 40-metre vehicle. A simple 40 or 45-metre Flexity streetcar would serve the demand.

If the only alternative is underground (because of public objection to elevated downtown), it seems reasonable.

Recall the uproar when Doug Ford proposed building elevated transit down Front Street downtown! It's a tough sell.

By definition, J-walking is crossing against a signal. You literally can't J-walk when there's no signal!

That aside ... I would suggest prohibiting left turns (and why not, they are prohibited mostly on many downtown streets), and limiting them to the one-way streets instead.

I keep being told by so many people who must know better than me, that we'll be having fully automated automobiles down soon. How then is automated rolling stock not an option before then?

The whole reason that single vehicles can be used is that they will run highly frequently and be automated - you are missing the point of this. That goes out the window with this idea. Look at the Canada Line - same capacity as Eglinton with trains roughly 50% as long.

he SkyBridge, they dove in into a t

New West is often considered one of the best stations on the SkyTrain network and honestly the section there is not a big deal . . .

 

[SFO-YYZ]

There aren't many elevated SkyTrain stations that have walkways integrated into adjacent buildings, and where there are, the stations are usually "side-of-road" stations where the development can come right up to the station building (Marine Gateway and New Westminster Stations come to mind, and maybe Gilmore in future). Aberdeen Station has an overhead walkway to one of its outside platforms that was added when an adajcent retail mall was built.

Brentwood is the only middle-of-road station with walkways over the street (there's no entrance to the south - that will await redevelopment there).

Metrotown is similar, but is located in a former interurban RoW between adjcent streets (not a median) so there's space for passengers coming down to grade under the guideway. The elevated walkway was removed during station renovations and if replaced, won't be the primary entrance, as it would lead to elevators and staircases, not escalators.

Generally, SkyTrain avoids middle-of-road stations.

There is really only one place where SkyTrain comes really close of older taller existing buildings
- downtown New Westminster. I doubt it would be allowed again.
When the line was built, it ended at an elevated tail track just east of New Westminster Station.
For the 1990 extension with the SkyBridge, they dove in into a trench for Columbia Station just east of the old law courts and then to the bridge.

Expo Line (1986) over Clarkson St, New Westminster:

The red brick building is the former law courts.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Here's a 1987 shot showing the tailtrack was what buildings existed at the time:

https://globalairphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/canada_bc_new_westminster_1987_02_24-0401.jpg

Photo Search - Global Air Photos

GLOBAL AIR PHOTOS has been dedicated for 35+ years in providing commissioned and online stock oblique (slanting with skyline) aerial photography for city and municipal planners, land developers, real estate companies and the mining industry.

globalairphotos.com

I think the 1987 picture says a lot about the density at the time Skytrain was built in New Westminster. Like you said, it was allowed at then because there was much less density then, but very unlikely it would be approved today.

Furthermore, I really like the layout of New Westminster's historic downtown, but it's by no means comparable to the level of density in downtown Montreal's RL boulevard. For one, back in the late 80s, the building heights around the Skytrain tracks are quite low (no more than 3-10 storeys tall for most buildings) - there isn't a deep urban canyon like what we see in Montreal's RL, especially in the section west of Berri (it might work east of Berri there's slightly less density around the CBC lands). Also, as someone mentioned earlier, the elevated alignment in downtown Montreal on RL Boulevard will likely face a series of court challenges due to its proximity to structures with Heritage Preservation status (there are at least 11 heritage protected buildings located on RL boulevard that border the proposed elevated route). Once again, while I really like Vancouver's Skytrain build out, I don't think its experience is especially applicable to REM-B's current downtown alignment. As we all know, Vancouver and Montreal evolved and grew under very different circumstances and eras (with the formernot coming of age until perhaps the last 2 decades).

 

[nfitz]

It's not LRT? Where did you even get this?

You misunderstand me. I didn't say it wasn't light rail.

The whole reason that single vehicles can be used is that they will run highly frequently and be automated - you are missing the point of this. That goes out the window with this idea. Look at the Canada Line - same capacity as Eglinton with trains roughly 50% as long.

Eglinton Line only has equal capacity to Canada Line, if you make a lot of assumptions, such as much more frequent trains on one instead of the other, replacement (or at least rebuilding) existing trains, and assumptions about about being able to maintain frequent service with crush capacity, rather than design capacity.

One challenge is that this new east-west light rail is going to have, like at Bloor station, is a huge number of people getting out at the terminus, and at the interchange station near Berri. The train being shorter isn't going to impact the dwell time much, with the biggest bottleneck being getting people out of the train ... which is primarily a function of the number of people who have to walk through the door. I suppose you could help this by putting on even more doors - similar to the old Montreal Metro cars. But the trend has for some reason to go for less doors.

Hopefully they use centre and side platforms at the terminus and station at Berri to address this.

 

[asher__jo]

It's almost like the term Light Rail Transit is a slur.

 

[afransen]

LRT is fine, if it stays in its lane: cheap, better-than-bus service.

When the decision was made to tunnel a significant portion of Crosstown because of the width of Eglinton in midtown, it should have prompted a rethink of the technology and ROW for the rest of the line.

 

[felix123]

I think we will be seeing fully automated streetcars very soon, like in the next 10 years easily.

Somewhere in the world, yes - but in Toronto, no. We didn't even make use of the driverless capability of our ICTS trains on Line 3, which has been available to us for decades. I would hope that we first get logical signal priority at intersections so that a streetcar carrying 100 passengers will finally be allowed to proceed before a car with one occupant can make their left turn.

The point is moot in this discussion anyway - Montreal has already begun building its driverless transit infrastructure, while in Toronto we haven't yet confirmed plans for it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Somewhere in the world, yes - but in Toronto, no. We didn't even make use of the driverless capability of our ICTS trains on Line 3, which has been available to us for decades. I would hope that we first get logical signal priority at intersections so that a streetcar carrying 100 passengers will finally be allowed to proceed before a car with one occupant can make their left turn.

The point is moot in this discussion anyway - Montreal has already begun building its driverless transit infrastructure, while in Toronto we haven't yet confirmed plans for it.

How about reading about Automatic Train Control at this link.

The Toronto Transit Commission is re-signaling Line 1 (Yonge-University-Spadina) to improve reliability and capacity on Canada’s busiest subway system. To complete the installation, commissioning and testing of Automatic Train Control (ATC), the TTC will close portions of the subway during some weekends....

 

[felix123]

How about reading about Automatic Train Control at this link.

There are no plans to use ATC to make Line 1 driverless.

 

[robmausser]

There are no plans to use ATC to make Line 1 driverless.

Thats wrong. Once Line 1 is entirely ATC operation it will be driverless; albeit one employee will still sit in the driver seat to operate the doors.

Currently there are 2 employees, one to operate the doors and one to drive.

Having 2 employees currently is a useless union requirment, and so is the 1 driver with ATC.

But, the trains will drive themselves, the employee isn't a driver, they are a "sit there and open the doors" operator.

And I guess to make sure nothing goes wrong with the ATC. I mean, the Skytrain has operated driverless since 1985 without a single major accident, and in 1995 driver negligence on the TTC subway killed a bunch of people and injured hundreds of others, but hey, whatever