Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Megaton327]

It still astounds me a customer can't buy a Presto card at the station from those machines. All transit systems that I've visited in Europe and even in the US, smart cards are sold at the station from those machines. They do this in Chicago, Washington, Boston, New York, London, Paris, Stockholm, etc..

They will do it in Toronto at every subway station once the rollout is complete, so I'm not sure what the issue is. I think it has been made abundantly clear that Presto is not fully rolled out and nobody is required to use it yet, and by the time that it is more or less the sole fare payment method for regular riders the support for it will expand dramatically.

 

[cplchanb]

They will do it in Toronto at every subway station once the rollout is complete, so I'm not sure what the issue is. I think it has been made abundantly clear that Presto is not fully rolled out and nobody is required to use it yet, and by the time that it is more or less the sole fare payment method for regular riders the support for it will expand dramatically.

what a lose lose mentality from ttc....theyve always been selfish in their ideals....had theyd been aboard presto when it started everything wouldve been done already at much lower cost. now theyre desperately clinging to every last scrap of tin token untel the very very end. they need to promote presto more and one way to do it is by selling from all machines

 

[rbt]

... everything wouldve been done already at much lower cost.

What makes you think that? Metrolinx didn't even consider giving Presto a reasonable design until after TTC got a tender proving another company could do it.

If TTC got on-board from the start, Presto would still be the garbage V1 system that London and Hong Kong have abandoned as ancient technology.

In fact, if cost was the primary concern, Presto as a department of Metrolinx should have existed. Metrolinx ought to have done a straight payment service tender (X% of revenues in exchange for handling all aspects of the payment process) just as the TTC put out. There was no reason to either start from scratch or manage it in-house; Metrolinx has zero banking/finance experience to provide.

 

[cplchanb]

What makes you think that? Metrolinx didn't even consider giving Presto a reasonable design until after TTC got a tender proving another company could do it.

If TTC got on-board from the start, Presto would still be the garbage V1 system that London and Hong Kong have abandoned as ancient technology.

In fact, if cost was the primary concern, Presto as a department of Metrolinx should have existed. Metrolinx ought to have done a straight payment service tender (X% of revenues in exchange for handling all aspects of the payment process) just as the TTC put out. There was no reason to either start from scratch or manage it in-house; Metrolinx has zero banking/finance experience to provide.

fair enough on the first point but my main point still stands... if only ttc played the game and wasnt so self centered we would be enjoying what most of "world class" cities have been enjoying since y2k

 

[nfitz]

what a lose lose mentality from ttc....theyve always been selfish in their ideals....had theyd been aboard presto when it started everything wouldve been done already at much lower cost. now theyre desperately clinging to every last scrap of tin token untel the very very end. they need to promote presto more and one way to do it is by selling from all machines

How would it have been lower cost? Metrolinx claimed from day one that it was going to cost a couple hundred million than TTC estimated, but TTC had to foot the bill. Metrolinx finally conceded to install it themselves, with TTC paying Metrolinx the contracted installation price over a delayed period.

Turns out, installation in TTC is now a couple of hundred million over budget. Which means TTC was right all along.

Can you tell me exactly how this would have been cheaper for TTC in first place, when they had to foot the overrun?

fair enough on the first point but my main point still stands... if only ttc played the game and wasnt so self centered we would be enjoying what most of "world class" cities have been enjoying since y2k

Your first point was cost.

Given how limited Presto I was, wasn't holding off, and pushing it to a higher standard a good idea, thus allowing credit/debit, and all the extra machines that TTC is seeing, that the other agencies don't have?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

fair enough on the first point but my main point still stands... if only ttc played the game and wasnt so self centered we would be enjoying what most of "world class" cities have been enjoying since y2k

The TTC wanted to play the game and put out tenders but the province apparently threatened to withdraw funding from the crosstown and other planed LRT lines if they didn't go with their baby which is Presto

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What makes you think that? Metrolinx didn't even consider giving Presto a reasonable design until after TTC got a tender proving another company could do it.

What was so unreasonable about the original design? (I'm not familiar with the original presto design)

 

[rbt]

What was so unreasonable about the original design? (I'm not familiar with the original presto design)

It completely ignored bank communication protocols (Open Payment and a couple layers below/above it) which were emerging as a global standard (in retail in Europe at the time). In addition, it was a distributed model like Paris (data on the card) which meant not only could they not talk to a credit/debit/phone wallet card but they had no way of combining 2 taps for them either (tap in + out) even if they did change the communication layer.

This made sense in the 90's when London/Paris/Hong Kong were building their platforms. Networks were slow and the volume of data would overwhelm a central server (clustered DBs were really expensive). Distributed processing (handling taps inside the local device only) was the way to go.

All of the lessons learned from other cities and chip banking had been combined to create these standards. Ignoring those lessons was ridiculous; many of those early Presto pains were already known issues and solved by companies other than Accenture who do small-transaction retail. Also server hardware had caught up to the point where handling a few million events per hour was pretty easy; today it's downright trivial (several open source DBs can deal with 1 million transactions per second on a single server).

Presto V2, what Ottawa/TTC got, includes a nearly complete redesign of the Presto backend and nearly all software in the hardware too. The redesign step wasn't needed if they paid even the slightest attention to rapidly emerging (testing in retail in Europe at that time) global standards.

London's rebuild of their payment system wasn't cheap and based on what Metrolinx is charging in 905 renewal contracts, their project was even more expensive as %age of overall revenue.

Once Presto hits TTC spec, they'll have gotten where needed in the end. Probably could have saved a half a decade and possibly a 100 million if they just did it out of the gate. Nothing in the TTC spec was considered unusual for modern Payment cards in 2007.

 

[nfitz]

What was so unreasonable about the original design? (I'm not familiar with the original presto design)

Didn't support stuff like debit/credit. You've seen other towns, no card filling devices, no paper Presto tickets, etc.

But most of all, TTC had to pay entire cost of install up front, which TTC kept saying was underestimated signficantly - which now turns out to be true.

 

[books]

Well, I've had my first free ride courtesy of Presto. I took the subway to Spadina, tapped on the 510 southbound which showed up as a transfer, so far so good. I spent about an hour in the area of Spadina and Dundas and then caught the 510 southbound again. When I got on I tapped and received a beep in acknowledgment. When I got home I checked my account and discovered that it shows the last tap (when I boarded the 510 to go home) as a transfer on the north side of Leslie and Commissioners. I was nowhere near that intersection! So, rather than paying $6 for two fares (one at Vic Park and one on the 510 southbound), I paid $3 ($1.50 x 2) for the entire trip.
I wonder if a fare enforcement officer would have given me a ticket if my card had been checked. I did everything the way I was supposed to and yet I got a free ride. The TTC should fix this before they lose a substantial amount of money, if they haven't already!

 

[PinkLucy]

This happens for me all the time. I’ve had my card checked and it’s all good.

 

[WillTo]

Well, I've had my first free ride courtesy of Presto. I took the subway to Spadina, tapped on the 510 southbound which showed up as a transfer, so far so good. I spent about an hour in the area of Spadina and Dundas and then caught the 510 southbound again. When I got on I tapped and received a beep in acknowledgment. When I got home I checked my account and discovered that it shows the last tap (when I boarded the 510 to go home) as a transfer on the north side of Leslie and Commissioners. I was nowhere near that intersection! So, rather than paying $6 for two fares (one at Vic Park and one on the 510 southbound), I paid $3 ($1.50 x 2) for the entire trip.
I wonder if a fare enforcement officer would have given me a ticket if my card had been checked. I did everything the way I was supposed to and yet I got a free ride. The TTC should fix this before they lose a substantial amount of money, if they haven't already!

Your first of many! In some ways, PRESTO implementation rocks!

Leslie and Commissioners I believe is where the Leslie Barns (streetcar depot) is. So the GPS is wonky.
Though I am surprised it let you go on the same route twice without charging.

Maybe the logic is if you tap onto the same route a second time and the first time it was a charge, you get charged again.
But if you tap onto the same route and the first time was a transfer, it gets confused and gives you another transfer.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Your first of many! In some ways, PRESTO implementation rocks!

Leslie and Commissioners I believe is where the Leslie Barns (streetcar depot) is. So the GPS is wonky.
Though I am surprised it let you go on the same route twice without charging.

Maybe the logic is if you tap onto the same route a second time and the first time it was a charge, you get charged again.
But if you tap onto the same route and the first time was a transfer, it gets confused and gives you another transfer.

I believe it doesn't count as a transfer if you tap on the EXACT SAME vehicle.

 

[PinkLucy]

Or even if you get off and then back on the same route, travelling the same direction. For example, I was on the 511 NB and wanted to transfer to the 501 EB. After waiting 20 minutes with no 501 showing up, I decided to get back on to the 511 NB. I was charged a second fare.

 

[nfitz]

I believe it doesn't count as a transfer if you tap on the EXACT SAME vehicle.

If the location is messed up, generally you get a free transfer, as it doesn't know what route it's on.

But the same vehicle is a different issue. It blocks for quite some time with streetcars, you just get a strange beep, and it doesn't take it. Which is a problem, if you live a few stops from the terminal, pop home to get something, and leave 15-20 minutes late or something. Apparently the limit is shorter for some reason on buses.

Or even if you get off and then back on the same route, travelling the same direction. For example, I was on the 511 NB and wanted to transfer to the 501 EB. After waiting 20 minutes with no 501 showing up, I decided to get back on to the 511 NB. I was charged a second fare.

I don't know why that would work. I have about 50 examples on the 506 that show otherwise, even going in the same direction!

Where did you tap on? I wonder if the stupid thing can't differentiate between a 509 and a 511 near the Ex.