Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[rbt]

I've had my presto card inspected by Go, UPX and TTC fare inspectors and all they see is a check that you paid your fare.

That's all they see when that's all they choose to see; which is what they use 99% of the time to make their task faster.

There are menus which allow some historical viewing. I know they can go back at least 2 weeks and 4 taps including viewing information for other agencies (I.e. GO fare inspector can read TTC/OCTranspo taps).

 

[nfitz]

I've tapped on the same route many times, and got the free transfer. The only time I got refused was when I just happened to try to tap on the same vehicle an hour later. I don't think the system knows the routes, you can tap on as many buses and streetcars within 2 hours (so long as it isn't the same vehicle).

No, it is smarter than that. Or it has been since January.

My wife does it all the time too on 506, back, forth, back, forth, forth again, back, back again. I never see her get a free trip unless the location is screwed up. Hmm, that being said she did get one yesterday, after stopping at Gerrard/Coxwell to stop, but first leg was on 506C, and second was on 506 north from Eastwood and Coxwel (RBC) - which isn't a usual 506 stop, so that might have thrown it off. BUT, looking at data, she didn't get it on June 26, June 16, June 13, June 12 (3 charges in 2 hours), June 6 (though does seem to have had free trip - 5 trips that day ... 3rd trip was tap in at Woodbine to take 92 bus south, must have walked home from Gerrard. But then 20 minutes later started new 506 trip westbound ... and voila free trip; but tap 55 minutes later to come back Eastbound on 506 from Coxwell was charged as new trip - as it always is.

It's true it doesn't always know the route. It seems to try and cobble something together automagically based on GPS location; I tapped once on a new streetcar heading east on King at Sherbourne. It was signed as a 501 Leslie, Nextbus said it was a 509, so heading back to yard after shift; but they still had transfers activated, and the one I took, said 504. And then when I transferred to a 504 at Broadview I got an extra charge.

 

[johntauren]

That's all they see when that's all they choose to see; which is what they use 99% of the time to make their task faster.

There are menus which allow some historical viewing. I know they can go back at least 2 weeks and 4 taps including viewing information for other agencies (I.e. GO fare inspector can read TTC/OCTranspo taps).

I've heard it done rarely if you forget to tap once, and the fare inspector can see a history of consistent payment for the same fare, and just let you off with a warning instead of a fine. Of course, they may also see if you're not tapping with the same info.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

That's all they see when that's all they choose to see; which is what they use 99% of the time to make their task faster.

There are menus which allow some historical viewing. I know they can go back at least 2 weeks and 4 taps including viewing information for other agencies (I.e. GO fare inspector can read TTC/OCTranspo taps).

True I did have an issue once where I had a fare for UPX reversed and they saw I didn't have a valid fare but were able to look up that it had been reversed. Someone I knew was coming into the airport and I thought I would surprise them but when I arrived they had already left by cab so one of the UPX staff that was on the train was nice enough and reversed my fare for the return journey.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC has been clear that you don't need to tap onto vehicles in fare paid areas. It might well work better if you do - but the communication has been clear from those with authority to speak.

The funny thing is that the pamphlet that they handed out when Presto was being rolled out all said that you should tap onto all vehicles. I alos just looked at the TTC FAQ for Preto and it has the following to say:
Do I need to tap on a bus in the paid area if I have already tapped into a subway station?
No. But you will need to tap again if you transfer to another bus as part of your journey.

To that point I have done it a few times and never had any problems when I tapped on a vehicle in a station it just said Transfer with a zero dollar charge next to it just like if you transfer to another route, or to action that allows a transfer from a surface route. The only time I have not had it work was one time when I was on a 514 car that was diverted over Queen and I got on the subway at St. Andrews station.

 

[Steve X]

No, it is smarter than that. Or it has been since January.

My wife does it all the time too on 506, back, forth, back, forth, forth again, back, back again. I never see her get a free trip unless the location is screwed up. Hmm, that being said she did get one yesterday, after stopping at Gerrard/Coxwell to stop, but first leg was on 506C, and second was on 506 north from Eastwood and Coxwel (RBC) - which isn't a usual 506 stop, so that might have thrown it off. BUT, looking at data, she didn't get it on June 26, June 16, June 13, June 12 (3 charges in 2 hours), June 6 (though does seem to have had free trip - 5 trips that day ... 3rd trip was tap in at Woodbine to take 92 bus south, must have walked home from Gerrard. But then 20 minutes later started new 506 trip westbound ... and voila free trip; but tap 55 minutes later to come back Eastbound on 506 from Coxwell was charged as new trip - as it always is.

It's true it doesn't always know the route. It seems to try and cobble something together automagically based on GPS location; I tapped once on a new streetcar heading east on King at Sherbourne. It was signed as a 501 Leslie, Nextbus said it was a 509, so heading back to yard after shift; but they still had transfers activated, and the one I took, said 504. And then when I transferred to a 504 at Broadview I got an extra charge.

You can't get a free ride taking the same route back and forth but you can get free rides if you tap on a different route. You can't repeat the same route! I tested this multiple times. It's much easier to get free riders with buses as they are in grid systems and by taking them in circles without repeating a route, you are almost guarantee you will not see another charge within 2 hours. It doesn't matter if you walk or not. You can walk a km and still get a free ride.

I just did this the other day: took 3 buses on 3 different routes into Kipling (cause the first one broke down), Went to Broadview and walked out the station. Instead of walking back in Broadview after 10 minutes, I walked up Broadview and took a bus into the station. Went to Sherborune and took the 75 down. That's 5 taps within 2 hours and resulted in 1 payment and 4 transfers.
Taking a bus into Kipling. Getting out at Runnymede for a McD stop and walking back in also works cause Runneymede is one of those stations that accepts transfers.
Basically, one can go shopping and head home in a loop. Walk if you have to to avoid the same route. TTC probably knows about this but can't stop it till the have a new system that's about to control the reader to take a fares or they can move towards a 2 hour transfer.

For most people, this free ride thing isn't going to cost TTC to loose a lot of money. People wouldn't make an extra stopover and pay another fare if they don't have to. Since you can't repeat a route, the locations must be strategic. It works out well for transit enthusiasts and quick shopping but not the majority of the population. It's also time consuming cause you might have to detour and make it within the 2 hours window. Otherwise you'll get charged on transfers made after 2 hours. You'll likely end up walking more too.

Odd. I wonder if it sees the 501P and the 501L as two separate routes. Or was one a 502 perhaps?

I wonder too. I know the loading machines do show branch letters. You can transfer between the 506 streetcar the 506C bus and tap on both vehicles?

---

According to the TTC's website:
Transferring from subway station to streetcar

• Tap your PRESTO card on the card reader on the fare gate when you enter the subway station.
• Tap your card again on the card reader located at the front or rear doors of the streetcar when you board.
  Only one fare will be charged*

Do I need to tap on a bus in the paid area if I have already tapped into a subway station?
No. But you will need to tap again if you transfer to another bus as part of your journey.


You have to tap on streetcars even in fare paid zone so the inspector knows you paid. They rare check on outbound vehicles through. If you do not tap, it doesn't know if you have taken that streetcar route. You'll almost for certain get a free ride taking the streetcar back within two hours when you first tap. They could look at your history and say you didn't tap originally. I do notice hardly anyone taps on a streetcar in fare paid zone however.

 

[PinkLucy]

You can't get a free ride taking the same route back and forth but you can get free rides if you tap on a different route. You can't repeat the same route!

Yup, that's why it was so weird when I took the 501 east and then got a free ride on the return 501 trip west. It's never happened before. Must have been some odd little glitch.

 

[Steve X]

Yup, that's why it was so weird when I took the 501 east and then got a free ride on the return 501 trip west. It's never happened before. Must have been some odd little glitch.

Maybe it was a spare bus and the presto reader didn't know it was on the 501.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Gotta abuse the TTC's Presto immaturity to the fullest

 

[nfitz]

You can't get a free ride taking the same route back and forth but you can get free rides if you tap on a different route.

That's what we all concurred a while ago. I was responding to "Brainfreezes" comment that "I've tapped on the same route many times, and got the free transfer".

 

[Steve X]

That's what we all concurred a while ago. I was responding to "Brainfreezes" comment that "I've tapped on the same route many times, and got the free transfer".

Yeah, if someone is able to do it. They must appear as different routes to the presto reader. \

I wonder if transfers works for interlined routes. Now that Royal York is under construction like Coxwell, would someone be double charged from transfering from 73C/76A to the 73B/76B at Bloor. Unlike Coxwell where someone could wait for the proper interlined bus (it's either 22B/70A or 22B/70C), Royal York construction don't have a bus from Lake Shore to the La Rose loop (no such thing as 73B/76A).

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, if someone is able to do it. They must appear as different routes to the presto reader.

Well, I'd like to see what's showing up in Presto before I concur with that. If always the same stop, then perhaps another explanation of why Presto confused ...

 

[Megaton327]

The free rides enabled by Presto must be adding up to a lot of lost money for the TTC. I wonder if their tracking is so granular as to claim these damages from Metrolinx--I doubt it.

For instance, I've had business at the York University grounds a lot recently, and yesterday I took the following trips for one $3.00 fare within 2 hours (moved quickly):

• Tapped to board a 199 Finch Rocket east from York University to Finch station
• No-tap transfer to Line 1 southbound from Finch to North York Centre
• Tapped to reenter North York Centre station to continue southbound to College
• Tapped to board a westbound 506 Carlton
• Tapped to board a northbound 510 Spadina
• No-tap transfer to Line 1 northbound from Spadina to Sheppard West
• No-tap transfer at Sheppard West to a 196 York University Rocket, back to York University

This should have cost me $9.00 ($3 york university-finch-north york, $3 north york-college-506, $3 510-spadina-sheppard W-york). The TTC lost $6.00. On many other instances I've taken the 196 from York to Sheppard W then taken the subway downtown, and my return tap onto the subway was free, followed by a free connection to the 196 back to york.

I certainly don't mind saving money, but it's silly that the TTC doesn't just formally move to a 2-hour timed transfer. Do that and raise fares a bunch and I think most people will still consider it a net benefit.

 

[Steve X]

Right now, it seems like transfers are accepted from all routes. For the case of North York Centre, they only accept paper transfers from the 97C Yonge bus. There is no reason why any other route should be accepted cause it can't form a continuous trip unless the subway is down. Maybe they'll implement something like that later. They still couldn't get Royal York Station to accept temporary transfers. It seems like TTC can't control presto and would require an update with the presto management. This has to stop and they need to allow TTC to update transfer rules on the fly. Presto is still not mature in the current state.

 

[lead82]

The 24hr wait is the maximum till it might take for it to load online. Once you paid online, the balance can't update your card instantly sitting in your wallet. You have to tap the card against a reader to update your card's balance. The reader you tap needs to be informed that you requested to add money to your card. If it's the TTC, it should only be an hour or two as it updated over cellular data. If it's a GO, Miway, YRT and another 905 system buses, they only update over WiFi at the bus garage. Some buses are dispatched early in the morning won't update the readers to know you requested a load till the next day hence up to 24 hours.

In the smartcard world, they understand that if they made this card free, people would throw them out and buy a new card all the time. This leads to waste or plastic, RFID chips, card shortage during busy season, unnecessary retail service, increased service activity to process new cards, increased database size as ML don't know which card ended up in the garbage and etc. There is a cost to get the card to people. It's not free but it's not $6. They purposely set the card to $6 so people don't throw them out. Unlike other smartcards, presto makes people buy the card oppose to a deposit that can be refunded for tourists. I guess ML doesn't want to deal with the cost of refunds. They should make the card $2 as an activation fee with a $4 refundable deposit. The expiry date should be written as the warranty end date too.

Waiting a few hours for an update would be reasonable, but the 24hr max wait is too long. I can buy the argument about putting a price on the card to avoid it being thrown out. However, I think $6 is too high for this. Presto card should go digital, especially since the new readers are NFC and most phones now support NFC. The system should have been designed for near real-time sync rather than batches as this was a new generation system but it was designed as though we had technology from the 1980's. It still astounds me a customer can't buy a Presto card at the station from those machines. All transit systems that I've visited in Europe and even in the US, smart cards are sold at the station from those machines. They do this in Chicago, Washington, Boston, New York, London, Paris, Stockholm, etc..