Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[rbt]

That was well they were in testing though so it could just have been an error from the software, Like for example when you first turn on a GPS and have used it in different location it takes it time to find where you are.

Sure, lack of maintenance budget allowing thorough testing of new equipment.

Compare to say Germany who is running full production schedules on their new HSR lines for several months to ensure they will have trains arrive on-time (to the minute) when customers are allowed on. This was in addition to all the normal testing like TTC is doing for the Spadina extension.

That said, customers here are probably happier being guinea pigs than waiting a few months without service and being guaranteed the train arrives on time (not 5 minutes early or late).

 

[Andy T]

Website is now back online with some new features. You can now rename your card and can also export your ride history into a spreadsheet. There's also a new column called "Service Class" which I assume is used for the ability to finally charge extra on downtown express routes and services north of Steeles.

 

[DSC]

Website is now back online with some new features. You can now rename your card and can also export your ride history into a spreadsheet. There's also a new column called "Service Class" which I assume is used for the ability to finally charge extra on downtown express routes and services north of Steeles.

Let's see if this "July Update" deals (as promised by Chris Upfold of the TTC) with the bizarre need for paper transfers from bus to subway and vice versa at Union and Royal York.

PRESTO card customers require a paper transfer on the following routes. Transfers must be shown to station staff when entering Union or Royal York stations and to operators when boarding these buses. Please make sure you obtain a paper transfer at the start of your trip.

• 15 Evans
• 121 Fort York
• 72 Pape

• 48 Rathburn
• 73 Royal York
• 76 Royal York South

 

[nfitz]

Let's see if this "July Update" deals (as promised by Chris Upfold of the TTC) with the bizarre need for paper transfers from bus to subway and vice versa at Union and Royal York.

The Royal York paper transfers (like Coxwell which was also like this earlier) are temporary, because of construction in the bus loop - so no point fixing, to reset later.

So it's only Union that I'd think they'd fix. Anyone dare to test it?

(BTW, I noticed that you do see this effect on a child's PrestoCard, where it charges you a second $0 fare, rather than showing a transfer, which is what it usually do. So in theory one could run around the city tapping in all sorts of interesting combinations to see what would happen, without cost. Hmm, I wonder what it shows when you are using a metropass on Presto. Has anyone tried that yet?)

 

[DSC]

The Royal York paper transfers (like Coxwell which was also like this earlier) are temporary, because of construction in the bus loop - so no point fixing, to reset later.

That is true but the ABILITY to make short-term changes in 'the Rules' is surely essential. They can insist on paper transfers now (or try to) but in a year PRESTO will be on its own and there will be no paper fall-back. The Rules can never catch-up with 'emergency diversions' etc. Not to repeat too much, but the need to program things to the finest detail MUST be expensive and a move to time-based transfers would be SO much simpler - for the TTC, for PRESTO and, maybe more importantly, for their customers.

 

[rbt]

That is true but the ABILITY to make short-term changes in 'the Rules' is surely essential. They can insist on paper transfers now (or try to - but in a year PRESTO will be on its own and there will be no paper fall-back. The Rules can never catch-up with 'emergency diversions' etc. Not to repeat too much, but the need to program things to the finest detail MUST be expensive and a move to time-based transfers would be SO much simpler - for the TTC, for PRESTO and, maybe more importantly, for their customers.

I'm surprised they've not yet added a second layer of fare system in the central backend for automated short-term exceptions/corrections which can perform more beefy calculations than the terminal. We know they can push adjustments back to the card. Few would complain if they were charged an extra $3 on a transfer and it was refunded to the card on the next tap (perhaps even as they exit the subway station); and if they are concerned then hide terminal/card level charges/corrections from the web view and only show the central backend "trip" calculations instead.

 

[steveintoronto]

That is true but the ABILITY to make short-term changes in 'the Rules' is surely essential. They can insist on paper transfers now (or try to) but in a year PRESTO will be on its own and there will be no paper fall-back. The Rules can never catch-up with 'emergency diversions' etc. Not to repeat too much, but the need to program things to the finest detail MUST be expensive and a move to time-based transfers would be SO much simpler - for the TTC, for PRESTO and, maybe more importantly, for their customers.

Again, they seem to be able to do it for shuttle replacement buses using the same route number as the streetcars they replace, and even ostensibly reboarding the detoured streetcar at the end of the shuttle run (Shuttle bus along College, for instance, between Lansdowne and Bathurst, while streetcar takes longer diverting along Dundas and Bathurst), so why can't they do same for the listed routes? There's a lack of consistency, if not linearity.

• 15 Evans
• 121 Fort York
• 72 Pape

• 48 Rathburn
• 73 Royal York
• 76 Royal York South

We know they can push adjustments back to the card.

Are you sure on that? I thought the TTC vehicle Presto readers were just that, 'read-only'.

 

[nfitz]

Are you sure on that? I thought the TTC vehicle Presto readers were just that, 'read-only'.

No ..., I've had loads added on streetcars.

 

[steveintoronto]

No ..., I've had loads added on streetcars.

Re-reading rbt's post, I may have misunderstood his intent, but still think the TTC vehicle readers are 'read-only'

I'm surprised they've not yet added a second layer of fare system in the central backend for automated short-term exceptions/corrections which can perform more beefy calculations than the terminal. We know they can push adjustments back to the card. Few would complain if they were charged an extra $3 on a transfer and it was refunded to the card on the next tap (perhaps even as they exit the subway station); and if they are concerned then hide terminal/card level charges/corrections from the web view and only show the central backend "trip" calculations instead.

"We know they can push adjustments back to the card." as GO bus readers can. A GO driver can be given money to put it on your card, as many of us have done many times.

Does anyone have a reference for the TTC vehicle readers being able to do this?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

"We know they can push adjustments back to the card." as GO bus readers can. A GO driver can be given money to put it on your card, as many of us have done many times.

Does anyone have a reference for the TTC vehicle readers being able to do this?

I don't think the TTC has the equipment to do this nor do they plan to in the future. From what it looks like they are doing they plan to have reload machines at every station much like they have the token an metropass vending machines now. Since they plan on eliminating cash and tokens and tickets by some point too there would be no need for them to have anything on board. Alos in the case of the new streetcars you can't even get to the driver easily for them to be able to do anything with your presto card. Plus TTC stops are much closer then Go transit stops are I'm not sure what other bus companies allow the driver to add money to a presto card on route are, and TTC subway stations are much more numerous and most bus and streetcar routes stop in one or go past one.

 

[steveintoronto]

I don't think the TTC has the equipment to do this nor do they plan to in the future.

That's what I thought, but Fitz claims otherwise:

No ..., I've had loads added on streetcars.

I've Googled a couple of times on that, and can find no reference to it being possible. The TTC's readers are very limited compared to GO's, which are much more sophisticated, albeit still limited in terms of updating batch files by docking, not real time by radio, but are able to load cards real time.

Anyone have definitive reference?

 

[KevinT]

Every card stores data about the most recent tap or three, so that the transfer calculation for go/no-go can be made and the card accepted/denied without a live connection to the Presto servers. By nature that means that the TTC's readers are bi-directional, so crediting back a single fare for those not transitioning a fare boundary after an initial double-fare charge should be doable. Whether or not it will be is another story, but I don't see a technical hurdle.

 

[steveintoronto]

Every card stores data about the most recent tap or three, so that the transfer calculation for go/no-go can be made and the card accepted/denied without a live connection to the Presto servers. By nature that means that the TTC's readers are bi-directional, so crediting back a single fare for those not transitioning a fare boundary after an initial double-fare charge should be doable. Whether or not it will be is another story, but I don't see a technical hurdle.

I was wrong, Fitz is right on this one.

 

[Megaton327]

Since they plan on eliminating cash and tokens and tickets by some point too there would be no need for them to have anything on board.

The TTC is definitely not planning on eliminating cash fares at any point because it makes the system completely inaccessible to casual riders/tourists. Cash fares will likely be accepted as long as cash exists, and in the case of the LFLRVs that requires onboard fare vending machines which already exist.

 

[nfitz]

That's what I thought, but Fitz claims otherwise:

No ..., I've had loads added on streetcars.

I've Googled a couple of times on that, and can find no reference to it being possible.

That was a discussion about whether the Presto devices on vehicles were read-only or read-write. I have autoload set up, and it has added funds to my card while boarding a streetcar.

(though perhaps a better proof that they are read-write, is that if they weren't, then how else would 10 minutes after you tap on the first streetcar, would it know that tap on the second streetcar was a transfer, and not a new trip, given that if can be hours or longer before the streetcar syncs with the back office).

There's no intention that I'm aware of to let drivers add loads to cards. Though the hardware unit that the operator will have may have that capacity - but I've heard no discussion of doing it. I'd think it would create a lot of delays on busy buses and streetcars.[/QUOTE]