Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Jonny5]

Yeah, it does seem like there should be efficiencies there.

Then again, my experience with private ATMs is that using an armoured car service in that industry would eat all the profit. It depends heavily on what values are being carried around.

I do find it amazing that TTC still accepts cash for monthly passes.

Coins and tokens are probably the issue. Armoured cars and banks deal in a fraction of the volume of coins the TTC does. Coins are heavy and difficult to move around, especially when not rolled. IIRC when tickets were eliminated, the TTC had to hire several people to deal with the extra volume of coins and tokens to transport around the city every day.

 

[muller877]

Coins and tokens are probably the issue. Armoured cars and banks deal in a fraction of the volume of coins the TTC does. Coins are heavy and difficult to move around, especially when not rolled. IIRC when tickets were eliminated, the TTC had to hire several people to deal with the extra volume of coins and tokens to transport around the city every day.

As I understand it, the TTC needs customized vans to hold all the weight of the coins it has to collect. The trucks that the banks use would not be able to handle all the weight.

As well, the absolute value of the coins in the van is not comparable to the amount of money that is being put into a bank machine. That being said it is reasonable to have similar security since the money is not marked and therefore easier to use once if it is stolen.

The TTC must also have a very expensive coin sorting machine...would be very interesting to see. They would re-roll the tokens but the coins are generally sent to the bank in sorted bags.

Once Presto (and debit cards for that matter) are used on a more recurring basis the number of vans on the road I assume will slowly decrease.

 

[TOareaFan]

As I understand it, the TTC needs customized vans to hold all the weight of the coins it has to collect. The trucks that the banks use would not be able to handle all the weight.

As well, the absolute value of the coins in the van is not comparable to the amount of money that is being put into a bank machine. That being said it is reasonable to have similar security since the money is not marked and therefore easier to use once if it is stolen.

The TTC must also have a very expensive coin sorting machine...would be very interesting to see. They would re-roll the tokens but the coins are generally sent to the bank in sorted bags.

Once Presto (and debit cards for that matter) are used on a more recurring basis the number of vans on the road I assume will slowly decrease.

We seem to be on the working assumption that the only use that banks have for armoured cars is the paper generating ATMs? It is a while since I worked in retail banking (thank goodness) but from associates that I have talked to, there is still a very large component of the branch business that deals with the handling of coins for retail and commercial customers....yes, private armoured car companies do actually have vehicles capable of carrying the weight of coins....in fact just looking at the vehicles leads me to conclude they do moreso than the converted panel vans that make up the TTC fleet.

yes, I am sure the coin sorting machinery that the TTC has must be very interesting to see....I was once lucky to tour the main Toronto area facility that Bell had for sorting their coins from phone booths (yes, kids, that used to be a big business)....it was quite some time ago and I had to sign a pretty encompassing confidentiality agreement just to get in to it ....and I think that also included not revealing to folks even where it was.

 

[ehlow]

Funny stuff:
https://twitter.com/PRESTOcard/status/542387995966701568

Even though the Presto twitter account tweeted it and called it a "Presto machine", you can't pay by Presto using the machine.

 

[reaperexpress]

Funny stuff:
https://twitter.com/PRESTOcard/status/542387995966701568

Even though the Presto twitter account tweeted it and called it a "Presto machine", you can't pay by Presto using the machine.

Haha, the comments on that are hilarious. I love how at no point does the Presto twitter person make any attempt to explain or fix their nonsensical caption.

 

[ehlow]

Haha, the comments on that are hilarious. I love how at no point does the Presto twitter person make any attempt to explain or fix their nonsensical caption.

LOL. I feel bad for the person hired to tweet for Presto. It's probably not their fault yet it's their job to explain it.. ha ha

 

[nfitz]

There's an article in today's Star where Byford has said he wants to accelerate the Presto launch so it's completed in 2016. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/12/16/ttc_to_offer_debit_credit_payment_on_fares_and_passes.html

 

[cplchanb]

Well I applaud that he is finally taking firm stance on the schedule but all is just smoke in the mirrors until the physical units are up and running.
On a related note, does anyone know what components other than the obvious reader makes up the presto system on buses? How long would it take to install on 1 bus and does the TTC's
1950s farebox need to go?

 

[Catenary]

I think the buses would depend on the system the TTC chooses to go with.

Ottawa's PRESTO installation relies heavily on the existing vehicle infrastructure that was installed as part of the automated stop announcements. The readers are connected to the Clever Devices touchscreen over the existing internal network, and the driver uses the existing touchscreen to process secondary PRESTO fares, confirm taps and set the route as regular or express fare. The PRESTO devices also use the existing cellular modem. The old fare box remains, though transfers are printed with a printer installed as part of the ASA system, once again controlled by the touchscreen.

Systems in Toronto, like GO, have completely separate or mostly separate systems, with the PRESTO device getting it's own unit to interface with the driver, and not being connected to any cellular modems.

Scheidt & Bachmann, the current PRESTO equipment manufacturer, also does complete systems for places like Boston, where the farebox is completely replaced and the card reader is integrated into it.

 

[mdrejhon]

There's an article in today's Star where Byford has said he wants to accelerate the Presto launch so it's completed in 2016. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/12/16/ttc_to_offer_debit_credit_payment_on_fares_and_passes.html

One word: Kudos.

Let's hope the rollout isn't too painful. Also, instant online and kiosk Presto refills at least at fixed Presto stations (e.g. TTC subway stations).

I laugh at the "WHAT IS PRESTO?????" comment. There are many Torontoians who hasn't visited other Ontario cities lately and tried to catch a bus/train in them. (To that buddy: Presto is your new TTC pass & token.)

 

[DSC]

There's an article in today's Star where Byford has said he wants to accelerate the Presto launch so it's completed in 2016. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/12/16/ttc_to_offer_debit_credit_payment_on_fares_and_passes.html

It is my understanding that one of the problems with Presto and the TTC is their arcane transfer rules. Until they move to a more standard 2-hour transfer it will be hard to expand Presto throughout the system as programing in the 'exceptions" like where a walking transfer is allowed etc etc. John Tory now seems to understand why rear-door boarding is a good idea, I have not heard that he has thought again about his opposition (on budget grounds, I think) for 2-hour transfers.

 

[mdrejhon]

I think transfers need to become 2-hour timed passes, like they are in some cities.

Presto transfers in Ottawa behave like 2-hour timed passes.

You can (kinda) use them like that nowadays as TTC seems to have reduced enforcing some of the arcane transfer rules. I'm easily able to reverse direction on the same route, even though I've been holding the transfer squarely at their face. A few times at the same station for a repeat trip (two of them, from direction mistakes and wrong-side-of-subway situations). No refusal since 2010. Streetcars, however, are somewhat of a different story, but as long as you use them within a couple stops beyond a subway, I haven't been refused even though I hold them up clearly at the driver with a pause.

If I wasn't seeing things, or hallucinating, TTC culture seems to be preparing for the "transfer is a 2-hour timed pass" era, at least within the 416. I think eventually, Tory, will see the sensibility of this. Farecards often increase public transit spending, more than compensating for the loss of revenue caused by turning transfers into 2-hour timed passes. And people during peak period rarely reverse direction or contribute to congestion by multi-use of a transfer, so it wouldn't be a capacity worry in the central part of the U. And people do accidentally make mistakes by going in the wrong direction on subway, and they need to be able to "wave" those customers in. TTC reps won't easily be able to do that. So simpler to let the Presto faregates simply do that for ya.

Tory is going to approve transfers becoming 2-hour timed passes, no problem -- once he sees it makes so much sense -- and the new problems that will happen if this does not happen -- so give Tory time; it seems that so far, he seems to recognizes common transit sense when it's presented. By 2016.

 

[nfitz]

It is my understanding that one of the problems with Presto and the TTC is their arcane transfer rules. Until they move to a more standard 2-hour transfer it will be hard to expand Presto throughout the system as programing in the 'exceptions" like where a walking transfer is allowed etc etc. John Tory now seems to understand why rear-door boarding is a good idea, I have not heard that he has thought again about his opposition (on budget grounds, I think) for 2-hour transfers.

I'd think it would be difficult to implement the transfer rules as well. Especially when things like off-route buses and streetcars are so common.

However, the December 2012 contract that Metrolinx signed explicitly says that they'll implement the existing TTC transfer rules. So in theory this isn't an issue, and if it is, it's Metrolinx's problem.

The short-term solution is to simply keep handing out the paper transfers after you tap on successfully at the farebox. Which they'll have to do anyways until it's fully implemented.

Hopefully they make a decision about the 2-hour transfer long before Presto implementation is finished. The previous timeframe was to put it in the 2015 budget for September 2015 implementation at a cost of $20 million.

 

[Hairball]

I'd think it would be difficult to implement the transfer rules as well. Especially when things like off-route buses and streetcars are so common.

However, the December 2012 contract that Metrolinx signed explicitly says that they'll implement the existing TTC transfer rules. So in theory this isn't an issue, and if it is, it's Metrolinx's problem.

The short-term solution is to simply keep handing out the paper transfers after you tap on successfully at the farebox. Which they'll have to do anyways until it's fully implemented.

Hopefully they make a decision about the 2-hour transfer long before Presto implementation is finished. The previous timeframe was to put it in the 2015 budget for September 2015 implementation at a cost of $20 million.

As a programmer, trying to write logic to handle the TTC's transfer rules will just be a hot mess. Just imagine the fare disputes since everything will be stored in the card, at least with a paper transfer the driver or collector can just wave you through.

Just imagine going through a huge list of acceptable transfers between routes and locations, the amount of time allowed at each stopover point, maybe some upper cap of maybe 3 hours (even though in theory you can perhaps travel forever on a paper transfer). The permutations will become ridiculous, it increases the costs of maintenance of the system, which is probably one reason it has been difficult for TTC to accept electronic payments.

For example, if they used a single fare zone for buses, and multiple zones for subway (requiring tap off), along with some time limit, that would make things drastically easier to manage. The free transfer at bus terminals at stations might probably change eventually too.

It'll be quite interesting to see how this all pans out.

 

[TOareaFan]

As a programmer, trying to write logic to handle the TTC's transfer rules will just be a hot mess. Just imagine the fare disputes since everything will be stored in the card, at least with a paper transfer the driver or collector can just wave you through.

In a Presto world with paper transfers to satisfy current rules there would be no need to show it to a driver....just board with it in your pocket and if/when asked to show proof of payment dig it out.