Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Hairball]

In a Presto world with paper transfers to satisfy current rules there would be no need to show it to a driver....just board with it in your pocket and if/when asked to show proof of payment dig it out.

I guess that can be possible too. Though I think it'd probably be more likely to have mandatory tapping to board each vehicle or station.

It will still require that logic to be written in somewhere, whether it is the farebox or the unit the inspectors use.

 

[DSC]

I'd think it would be difficult to implement the transfer rules as well. Especially when things like off-route buses and streetcars are so common.

However, the December 2012 contract that Metrolinx signed explicitly says that they'll implement the existing TTC transfer rules. So in theory this isn't an issue, and if it is, it's Metrolinx's problem.

The short-term solution is to simply keep handing out the paper transfers after you tap on successfully at the farebox. Which they'll have to do anyways until it's fully implemented.

Hopefully they make a decision about the 2-hour transfer long before Presto implementation is finished. The previous timeframe was to put it in the 2015 budget for September 2015 implementation at a cost of $20 million.

In my opinion they need to maker the transfer rules NOW - it will be very wasteful of both time and $$ to try to write code to cope with the current Rules. The whole purpose of Presto is to get rid of ALL paper so, once the implementation is over, why one would need to have Presto plus paper transfers I do not know.

 

[nfitz]

In my opinion they need to maker the transfer rules NOW - it will be very wasteful of both time and $$ to try to write code to cope with the current Rules. The whole purpose of Presto is to get rid of ALL paper so, once the implementation is over, why one would need to have Presto plus paper transfers I do not know.

I agree it would make sense now.

But there's no incentive for TTC to do this. It doesn't cost TTC any money for Metrolinx to fulfill their contractual obligation. But it will cost them $20 million a year in revenue.

If TTC plays their cards right, they let Metrolinx spend years trying to get the transfer rules implemented, and then when they fail, they ask for compensation from Metrolinx to cover the $20 million a year it will cost them.

But yes, I'm hoping they do it ASAP, just for convenience.

 

[BMO]

In my opinion they need to maker the transfer rules NOW - it will be very wasteful of both time and $$ to try to write code to cope with the current Rules. The whole purpose of Presto is to get rid of ALL paper so, once the implementation is over, why one would need to have Presto plus paper transfers I do not know.

Wouldn't transfers as is be simple enough to implement with PRESTO? You tap onto a bus, most buses let off INSIDE a subway station, and even if you're taking a streetcar and you don't get off inside a station you could just tap the presto reader in the station and it would automatically calculate that you were just on a connecting route and not charge you anything. Same thing goes for if you're tapping into the subway if you tap on at any station then any route that connects to the subway system will be a free transfer if you tap onto them.

I develop applications and while I don't attempt to act like it's an easy task, it's nothing different than any "if, then" statement that's common use in any database and network infrastructure. I think the real issue will be inter-agency transfer rules.

 

[cplchanb]

Wouldn't transfers as is be simple enough to implement with PRESTO? You tap onto a bus, most buses let off INSIDE a subway station, and even if you're taking a streetcar and you don't get off inside a station you could just tap the presto reader in the station and it would automatically calculate that you were just on a connecting route and not charge you anything. Same thing goes for if you're tapping into the subway if you tap on at any station then any route that connects to the subway system will be a free transfer if you tap onto them.

I develop applications and while I don't attempt to act like it's an easy task, it's nothing different than any "if, then" statement that's common use in any database and network infrastructure. I think the real issue will be inter-agency transfer rules.

No need for explanations since its been done before by other presto partners and and systems. If they are implementing the 2 hr transfer then it should be easy meat, especially since they already have some sort of reduncancy function built into their metropasses to prevent passback. Not to mention yrt has it as well so all they have to do is ask their neighbour. I have a feeling though someway or another the bureaucrats inside the ttc board will try to reinvent the wheel or add bling and spinners to it rendering it more expensive and complex than it really has to be.
If I were to have it my way though with distance based fares for subway, charge the rider a discounted fare for connecting onto the bus, though I admit it would be very hard and costly to implement at bus terminals that are hop on/off

 

[nfitz]

Wouldn't transfers as is be simple enough to implement with PRESTO? You tap onto a bus, most buses let off INSIDE a subway station, and even if you're taking a streetcar and you don't get off inside a station you could just tap the presto reader in the station and it would automatically calculate that you were just on a connecting route and not charge you anything. Same thing goes for if you're tapping into the subway if you tap on at any station then any route that connects to the subway system will be a free transfer if you tap onto them.

I develop applications and while I don't attempt to act like it's an easy task, it's nothing different than any "if, then" statement that's common use in any database and network infrastructure. I think the real issue will be inter-agency transfer rules.

It's a very easy task if TTC adopts a 2-hour transfer, as they are already doing this on many other systems.

However Metrolinx has committed in writing to implement the existing TTC transfer rules. That would likely be a very difficult task.

 

[cplchanb]

It's a very easy task if TTC adopts a 2-hour transfer, as they are already doing this on many other systems.

However Metrolinx has committed in writing to implement the existing TTC transfer rules. That would likely be a very difficult task.

Well, if the TTC adopts 2 hr rules now, then it wouldnt it be considered the existing rule, when presto comes in...? (sarcasm intended)
I guess itll all be down to the bureaucrats...

 

[Electrify]

Considering that they have had a pilot project running on St. Clair for about 10 years now, they should either make it system wide or end it on that route.

Also, only in TTC culture could a "pilot project" be 10 years old and not only still continue to operate, but have no clear direction on how to proceed.

 

[nfitz]

Well, if the TTC adopts 2 hr rules now, then it wouldnt it be considered the existing rule, when presto comes in...? (sarcasm intended)
I guess itll all be down to the bureaucrats...

In the 650 page November 2012 master agreement there is a lot of language about transfer rules. Such as:

"Ensure support of all TTC transfer policies. TTC transfer policies are applicable to all TTC-operated services and vehicles (e.g. subway, surface,and Wheel-Trans). ... Ensure that all PRESTO Reader Assemblies on all TTC-operated services and vehicles and that HHPOS used for fare enforcement activities and POP will support TTC’s transfer policies. ... Ensure that the PRESTO System will support configuration of TTC’s transfer policies through table and
rules driven parameters, including at a minimum: - service routes, vehicles, direction of travel as defined in TTC’s policies ... Ensure that the PRESTO System is capable of amending transfer policies through the modification of the transfer rules table Amendment of TTC transfer policy must be managed and controlled in a secure manner, and must only occur with proper Authorization from TTC."​

Now, if TTC were to simplify their transfer rules, I suppose they might choose not to enforce the contract, though if they don't, they risk changing the fare rules back in the fare future, and Presto not supporting it.

Considering that they have had a pilot project running on St. Clair for about 10 years now, they should either make it system wide or end it on that route.

That is what they already announced in January 2014:

Board members also directed staff to consider implementing a time-based transfer system as part of the 2015 operating budget; end the time-based transfer trial on the 512 St Clair route if a TTC-wide time-based system is not adopted in 2015; and define a policy for use during times of significant disruption due to new transit construction.​

 

[Electrify]

So seeing as 2015 is a few weeks away, have they decided what they are going to do?

 

[nfitz]

So seeing as 2015 is a few weeks away, have they decided what they are going to do?

The 2015 operating budget doesn't go to City council for some time yet. TTC board voted in August to include the September 2015 transition to 2-hour fares in the 2015 operating budget. So up to the new board to confirm when staff present the 2015 operating budget, and then for the Budget Committee and City Council to confirm. The operating budgets go to City Council on March 10. The budet committee sits most of late January and February. I'd assume that we'll see the operating budget go to the TTC board at the next meeting (January 21). This would be in line with what happened in 2007 and 2011.

The deadline wasn't January 1, 2015, but "in 2015".

 

[mdrejhon]

TTC board voted in August to include the September 2015 transition to 2-hour fares in the 2015 operating budget.

Good to hear the horse's mouth (if this is accurate)

Transfers essentially become 2 hour metropasses.

And I hear that Tory is lighting a fire under TTC to get Presto rolled out faster.

Good.

One huge step towards easier TTC/GO faresystem integration.

 

[nfitz]

Good to hear the horse's mouth (if this is accurate)

See bullet 8 in the first item in www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2014/August_19/Highlights/index.jsp and also www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2014/August_19/Supplementary_Reports/Opportunities_to_Improve_Transit_Service_in_Toronto.pdf and www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2014/August_19/Supplementary_Reports/Decisions/Opportunities_to_Improve_Transit_Service.pdf

Transfers essentially become 2 hour metropasses.

Assuming that the current TTC Board, Budget Committee, and City Council all approve, and can find the $20 million a year to do it.

 

[mdrejhon]

Thought exercise.

- SmartTrack (GO RER #1) has same fare as TTC!
- We know Presto makes fare unification easier
- SmartTrack stops at many GO stations (confirmed)
- TTC CEO now wants Presto full rollout by 2016 on TTC, which can make Metropasses/tokens extinct by SmartTrack launch
- TTC in August, agreed in principle to make their transfers equivalent of 2-hour timed passes (in any direction, even return trips)
- There's no faregates if you hop off a SmartTrack & hop onto a GOTrain (station reuse)
- There's no faregates at some Crosstown interchanges with SmartTrack/GO
- SmartTrack is part of GO RER, confirmed by Metrolinx
- TTC possibly introduces high speed Presto tapout (like London Underground's great tapout system, better than Vancouver)
- London Underground and Presto uses the same chip in their Presto card, and no server uplink needed.
- New TTC turnstile apparently will have presto reader at top surface (like London Underground) allowing you to run while tapping. Tapout becomes practical.
- Metrolinx also said GO RER will have lower operating costs. Technically, that means they can lower short-distance fares when there's capacity.
- TTC fare rises will probably happen before SmartTrack complete. RER short-distance pricedrop + TTC farerise = same fare price in 2020
- GO RER, adds new infill stations and approximately triples the number of inside-416 stations.

Now, say, TTC/GO unifies faresystem by 2020
TTC/GO would have zones when going well out to 905 (commuter fares), but would be unified fare within the approximate 416 zone.

I challenge -- What's stopping TTC/GO from unifying their faresystem if GO RER is not cancelled, considering the GO RER rollout begins with SmartTrack?

 

[nfitz]

Thought exercise.

- We know Presto makes fare unification easier

Does it? Montreal had no problem unifying fares in the 1980s, long before any smart card. Presto might give more options, but it does nothing to solve the political and funding issues that have stymied fare integration in Toronto for decades.

- SmartTrack stops at many GO stations (confirmed)

Confirmed like the SRT extension to Malvern was confirmed? Or the SRT conversion to LRT and extension to Sheppard was confirmed? Or confirmed like the SRT replacement with subway to Sheppard was confirmed?

I'm not really seeing the relevance of this dicussion to Presto.