Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[mdrejhon]

Confirmed like the SRT extension to Malvern was confirmed? Or the SRT conversion to LRT and extension to Sheppard was confirmed? Or confirmed like the SRT replacement with subway to Sheppard was confirmed?

My message never confirmed any of those.

I didn't say all SmartTrack stations will also be GOTrain stations. Lots of infill stations will only be for SmartTrack (ala GO RER). There will be several stations that serve both. SmartTrack runs over the Kitchener GO line up to Eglington, and runs over the Stoufville line up to Uninoville, and shares many of the stations along the way.

We already know this far, and there's no room to build double-stations at a lot of these, with faregates, and create cost overruns bigger than the cost of faresystem unification. You can buy more votes by recycling stations & doing a population-appeasing move. It's Economics 101 *and* Politics 101.

I'm not really seeing the relevance of this dicussion to Presto.

It does, insofar as Presto makes faresystem unification much easier. When TTC is fully Presto, the floodgate is open for gradual fare integration, then it will start unifying more. Bit by bit. Lots of meetings beteen TTC and GO have been wanting fare integration, and the process will be accelerating when Presto is fully rolled out, so the farecard is unified. By the time of GO RER, it's unified 416-zone fare.

The point is that is isn't possible without the Presto card, the raison d'être of this thread.

Now, we have the Presto card, it's not impossible to unify, and there's lots of hits in the TTC and Metrolinx documents of this desire, beginning with a few pilot projects, plus we can see the dominoes will fall with SmartTrack arrival (which indirectly politically forces faresystem unifiication on the 416 legs of two GOtrain lines). The other GO lines will highly likely follow after GO RER electricification (SmartTrackization?), especially if SmartTrack farebox recovery is at least competitive to when only GOtrains was running along that line. One domino falls, the next falls, and by 15-20 years, we've got TTC/GO 416 unified fare.

(The fly in the ointment is if electricification/GO RER deployment is cancelled.)

 

[nfitz]

I didn't say all SmartTrack stations will also be GOstations.
There will be some stations that serve both.

My point is we don't know yet if the entire project will even happen. While I'm sure there'll be increased GO service, there's no indication that there will be anything like a direct Kennedy to Dundas West train, with many stops in between. Nothing is confirmed.

It does, insofar as Presto makes faresystem unification much easier. Fare integration will gradually happen, then it will start unifying more. Lots of meetings beteen TTC and GO have been wanting fare integration, and the process will be accelerating when Presto is fully rolled out, so the farecard is unified.

The issue has never been the technology to do it. It's always been political and financial.

The point is that is isn't possible without the Presto card.

I 100% disagree. If Montreal could integrate fares without a fare card, how come Toronto can't? Most other transit agency in the GTA had integration with GO and neighbouring agencies years ago, long before Presto. Presto doesn't drive fare integration.

 

[mdrejhon]

I 100% disagree. If Montreal could integrate fares without a fare card, how come Toronto can't?

Maybe you're technically right in my chosen choice of words, but Toronto has structurally made it impossible to do anything under the existing TTC system. The Presto card also politically forces those barriers out of the way, making it easier for TTC to agree to faresystem unification.

From a purely _technical_ point of view, you're right.
Perhaps I reword it as a long winded, but more accurate:

"The point is that this probably isn't even remotely nearly as feasible in Toronto without the Presto card"

Culturally, politically, and economically. It forces a new thinking in TTC boardrooms, forcing new faregates into TTC, forcing new equipment and technology into TTC, paves way for flexibility, options for future government to force&mandate faresystem integration at low capital cost (and appropriate budgetting for operating cost of integration), etc. The new mindset caused by the SmartTrack+Presto-ized TTC, is the first major domino to fall towards faresystem unification between TTC/GO. Paying higher fares on Lakeshore GO RER to Long Branch, than Kitchener GO RER (SmartTrack) to Eglington? Doesn't make much sense unless Tory goes for a UPX-sized-train-duplicated-stations system to keep the fares firewalled away from GOtrains. This is going to be politically infeasible, reduces transit capacity, interferes with Metrolinx GO RER initiative, and makes transfers to GOtrains much harder. Tory's smart enough not to do that. The path of lowest cost and lowest resistance, with highest political benefit & population happiness, all point into the same direction: cheaper cost of inside-416 faresystem unification instead of more costly station duplication. Beyond a certain station (e.g. Long Branch or Oakville, somewhere specific) will be the higher cost of commuter fares, like Paris RER, but within 416, the path of least political/economic/population resistance will be to unify fares.

But now we're getting kinda offtopic -- back to Presto -- which i still feel is a key piece making this even realistic.

Maybe I need to create a new thread, "TTC / GO faresystem unification", and move the discussion there.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe you're right in the choice of words, but Toronto has structurally made it impossible to do anything under the existing TTC system. The Presto card also politically forces those barriers out of the way, making it easier for TTC to agree to faresystem unification.

100% disagree. TTC will not agree to integration (I doubt we'd ever see Unification) unless they are somehow guaranteed not to lose any revenue. This could happen without Presto. And this could happen with Presto. But the bottom line is someone has to find the money.

 

[mdrejhon]

100% disagree. TTC will not agree to integration (I doubt we'd ever see Unification) unless they are somehow guaranteed not to lose any revenue. This could happen without Presto. And this could happen with Presto. But the bottom line is someone has to find the money.

Duh -- this is year 2014.
I'm talking about, by end of 2020s.

TTC/Metrolinx is already politically forced into integration on one central segment of some GOtrain line: SmartTrack
(That's GO RER according to Metrolinx)

FYI, I've spun this thread to a different thread, since I now realize it contains lots of spinoff topics not appropriate to this thread
TTC / GO unification of faresystem by end of 2020s

 

[Electrify]

The 2015 operating budget doesn't go to City council for some time yet. TTC board voted in August to include the September 2015 transition to 2-hour fares in the 2015 operating budget. So up to the new board to confirm when staff present the 2015 operating budget, and then for the Budget Committee and City Council to confirm. The operating budgets go to City Council on March 10. The budet committee sits most of late January and February. I'd assume that we'll see the operating budget go to the TTC board at the next meeting (January 21). This would be in line with what happened in 2007 and 2011.

The deadline wasn't January 1, 2015, but "in 2015".

Sounds like by the time everything is said and done 2016 would be a safer bet.

I've said it elsewhere, but increase the cost of smaller fares so that Metropasses break even at a lower amount if necessary, but it is time to bring in 2 hour transfers!

 

[nfitz]

Sounds like by the time everything is said and done 2016 would be a safer bet.

In terms of implementation perhaps, but we should know which way things will go in March 2015.

 

[Jonny5]

I noticed a Fortinos store in Burlington had a Presto Card reader at the lottery ticket counter. Apparently they can both load and issue cards (for free). The clerk said all Fortinos either do this now or will shortly. She wasn't sure about other Loblaws owned stores. Since they recently bought Shoppers Drug Mart, that could be a path to roll out instant PRESTO reloading to almost every GTA neighbourhood. I'm sure the other chains would want in if too.

 

[Tuscani01]

So will there eventually be a temporary presto card available for tourists or infrequent transit users?

I was in Lisbon last week, and it was 0.50 Euro cents for a temporary fare card. You cannot use the Metro without this card. Is the end goal of Presto to eliminate all other fare types and operate in the same manner, or will cash always be an option? (Cash is still accepted on surface routes in Lisbon. Only the Metro was fare card only)

 

[LNahid2000]

I noticed a Fortinos store in Burlington had a Presto Card reader at the lottery ticket counter. Apparently they can both load and issue cards (for free). The clerk said all Fortinos either do this now or will shortly. She wasn't sure about other Loblaws owned stores. Since they recently bought Shoppers Drug Mart, that could be a path to roll out instant PRESTO reloading to almost every GTA neighbourhood. I'm sure the other chains would want in if too.

Haha I was discussing with a friend a few weeks ago that they should just put Presto readers in every shoppers drug mart since you can find one pretty much anywhere. I hope this happens.

 

[Molybdenum]

So will there eventually be a temporary presto card available for tourists or infrequent transit users?

Yes in the next phase coming starting in 2016 or 17 the idea is that fare sales will be done through vending machines and the collector booths eventually shuttered. If you don't have a Presto card already, the machine will issue you a throwaway paper rfid card. Montreal currently does something similar for their metro day passes.

 

[mdrejhon]

I noticed a Fortinos store in Burlington had a Presto Card reader at the lottery ticket counter. Apparently they can both load and issue cards (for free). The clerk said all Fortinos either do this now or will shortly. She wasn't sure about other Loblaws owned stores. Since they recently bought Shoppers Drug Mart, that could be a path to roll out instant PRESTO reloading to almost every GTA neighbourhood. I'm sure the other chains would want in if too.

All Fortinos in Hamilton also can handle Presto refills now, as far as I know. Both the Burlington and Hamilton buses all use Presto now. Now if only TTC can catch up.

I hope the Byford(TTC CEO) and Tory combo does wonders an accelerate that deployment.

 

[Platform 27]

If you don't have a Presto card already, the machine will issue you a throwaway paper rfid card..

 

[adma]

I'm new to this thread and don't want to dredge through everything for answers; but in light of my kind of work, I'm concerned about whether Presto will mean the end of the existing one-size-fits-all-in-the-416 nature of the existing monthly Metropass.

Can anyone quickly answer that, without my having to dig and dig for answers?

 

[W. K. Lis]

If you use the card for only one ride in a month, then the current token fare value would be deducted. However, the card accumulates the fares paid for each ride, when enough fares are paid equal or past the daily threshold, then the remaining rides for the day are free. The count continues for the week and then for the month. So if the day threshold is 4, then the 5th, 6th, etc. rides are free, for the day. The card should be able to keep the fare counts for you, depending upon the dollar balance available on the card. Don't know about the current Metropass Discount Plan, but likely everyone would be on it when they use Presto. Likely, (using current prices) you would need more than 45 or 46 rides in a month to have any remaining rides free.

However, at present on the TTC, the passes are not set up. Only single fares would be recognized. See link.