Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[nfitz]

Either this month or June, Metrolinx will be making announcement regarding its order with BBD.

What is clear at this time, the current court ruling and contract with BBD is only for Toronto cars only. All other Metrolinx cars are an option to the point they are DOA.

What I was told today, both Hamilton and Mississauga cars subject to changes in the coming weeks, will be left up to the P3 bidders.

With all the money that BBD will be winning from Metrolinx in damages, they can probably undercut the prices for anyone else in the P3.

 

[drum118]

With all the money that BBD will be winning from Metrolinx in damages, they can probably undercut the prices for anyone else in the P3.

BBD can under bid anyone it wants, but it doesn't mean they will get an order if they can't delivery on time. Depending how tenders are release, the lowest bider can be overlook or rejected. At this point of time, any bidders by P3 on new projects will reject BBD being part of the team.

Did BBD bid on Seattle 30 cars that was just awarded to Siemens? I don't think so since they haven't done much bidding on any contracts in the US for years. BBD has yet to win another order since 2000 in the US for LRV since they screw up Minneapolis order. How many cars has Minneapolis order since that first order and why hasn't BBD got any of them??

At this point, how much is BBD getting from ML to backup up your statement??

 

[TOareaFan]

^I would imagine cancelling all or part of a contracted order would result in significant damages....no?

 

[nfitz]

^I would imagine cancelling all or part of a contracted order would result in significant damages....no?

Massive - especially after they spent millions to set up the new assembly line at Millhaven, not to mention the money they spent at La Pocatière to let them do the frames.

So they aren't just able to go for lost profits, they can also go for some very hard $.

 

[drum118]

Massive - especially after they spent millions to set up the new assembly line at Millhaven, not to mention the money they spent at La Pocatière to let them do the frames.

So they aren't just able to go for lost profits, they can also go for some very hard $.

Assuming ML can't legal cancel the contract or work out a settlement.

Then, ML is not responsible for extra cost to cost the relocation of production from Mexico to Canada because BBD decide to do it

 

[nfitz]

Assuming ML can't legal cancel the contract or work out a settlement.

If the settlement is cancelling the contract with a payout to Bombardier, the press and opposition will have a field day. Gas plants all over again.

Then, ML is not responsible for extra cost to cost the relocation of production from Mexico to Canada because BBD decide to do it

Yes they are. It was a business decision they would never have made if the Metrolinx order had never have existed. Though Millhaven wasn't moved from Mexico. It was a third assembly line to supplement the two in Thunder Bay to allow for increased capacity. Capacity that is unnecessary. Without the 182-car Metrolinx order, Bombardier would have been better off delaying the TTC order by 14 cars to build the Waterloo ones; while the Edmonton ones could have been mostly done in 2019 towards the end of the TTC production, and finished afterwards in 2020.

 

[Admiral Beez]

At this rate Bombardier is going to spend more money on litigation against its customers than engineering/design. Lessons learned I hope, we need to stay the f#ck away from this company.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

At this rate Bombardier is going to spend more money on litigation against its customers than engineering/design. Lessons learned I hope, we need to stay the f#ck away from this company.

I wonder how Metrolinx will fare trying to get other bidders though after all they haven't exactly been the best customer to some of their contractors either?

 

[TOareaFan]

At this rate Bombardier is going to spend more money on litigation against its customers than engineering/design. Lessons learned I hope, we need to stay the f#ck away from this company.

The only litigation that BBD has launched was seeking an injunction to stop ML from cancelling the contract without going through the contracted dispute resolution process......an action that the judge felt they were very well within their rights to launch.

If ML arbitrarily cancels this contract, and it is seen to be without merit.......you can bet there will be litigation and if BBD wins that they will get a ton of money plus whatever their cost will be.

 

[drum118]

If the settlement is cancelling the contract with a payout to Bombardier, the press and opposition will have a field day. Gas plants all over again.

Yes they are. It was a business decision they would never have made if the Metrolinx order had never have existed. Though Millhaven wasn't moved from Mexico. It was a third assembly line to supplement the two in Thunder Bay to allow for increased capacity. Capacity that is unnecessary. Without the 182-car Metrolinx order, Bombardier would have been better off delaying the TTC order by 14 cars to build the Waterloo ones; while the Edmonton ones could have been mostly done in 2019 towards the end of the TTC production, and finished afterwards in 2020.

Under contract law, BBD made the business decision to relocate from Mexico to Canada and setup a third production line to meet their production schedule, not ML. Therefore the courts will say that since BBD made the decision years after the contract was awarded to them to move production from one location to another and incurring cost doing so to meet their production schedule, they can't pass those cost onto ML or anyone else who has a contract with BBD at the time.

If ML or TTC or anyone else sue BBD over this delay and workmanship issue and are smart enough to point out that BBD knew back in 2000 there was a problem with the Mexico plant when they built the cars for Minneapolis order and the same problems show up in the first batch of cars for TTC, it will cost BBD big time in the long run.

BBD sign on the doted line stating they would have X car(s) by certain date with ML knowing they had an order with TTC for 204 cars to be delivery in full by 2018 at the time.

At this point, there was indication within BBD organization they had a problem with TTC order that was going or could effect ML order delivery time frame, they chose to sign the contract.

Waterloo piggy back onto ML order and sign a separate contract with BBD, with BBD knowing full well they have a production schedule problem based on TTC and ML order and chose to agree with the delivery date as requested than say it would be X time. By doing so, they flawlessly mislead Waterloo into thinking they would have their cars as requested and opening their system knowing they would not with Waterloo incurred extra cost until the line officially open. Waterloo wins back charges.

I have no info as to how many cars Edmonton is to get nor their delivery schedule, but it clear it will be miss at this point.

 

[nfitz]

I don't really agree with that assessment - besides, if the court decided that Metrolinx has been negotiating in bad faith, the settlement could be quite interesting.

I doubt the Edmonton order is particularly big. Their entire existing system is only 94 cars, which have been ordered in multiple smaller orders over the last 40 years. It's not clear how many vehicles are needed, but it's only a 13-km 12-stop extension. I'd be surprised if we are talking more than 20 vehicles.

I don't see why it's a clear miss - with no Metrolinx cars to build, and the Waterloo cars all completed by the end of 2017 (with production scheduled at 2-month), it seems pretty trivial to knock out a batch of 20, in under a year.

Heck, they've got the parts to build the first prototype, by taking apart the two Metrolinx prototypes, and reassembling into one longer unit.

 

[Steve X]

The 13km LRT (it's not an extension) needs about an hour to complete a round trip plus 5 minutes spare. With a 5 minute schedule, 13 trains are needed. Given them 3 spares, it's 16 trains. If they give operators more time at each end, another train might be needed pushing it to 17 trains.

All the renderings show trains with 2-LRV consist which meant approx. 32-34 LRVs are needed. They do expect 100,000 daily ridership after all.

Document says travel time is approx. 30min. Agreement says cannot exceed 32 min per trip.
https://www.edmonton.ca/documents/PDF/Valley_Line_Frequently_Asked_Questions_Sept_2013.pdf
https://www.edmonton.ca/documents/RoadsTraffic/Project Agreement Valley Line LRT Schedule 7 - Operations and Maintenance Performance Requirements.pdf

 

[nfitz]

The 13km LRT (it's not an extension) needs about an hour to complete a round trip plus 5 minutes spare. With a 5 minute schedule, 13 trains are needed. Given them 3 spares, it's 16 trains. If they give operators more time at each end, another train might be needed pushing it to 17 trains.

All the renderings show trains with 2-LRV consist which meant approx. 32-34 LRVs are needed. They do expect 100,000 daily ridership after all.

Good analysis. Though City of Edmonton has called it expansion. It's an expansion of the LRT network, although a new line. Given it intersects both existing lines, I assume it interconnects - in fact looking at the Wikipedia page for the system, the future proposed Festival line will run on part of this new track currently being built, before turning west on new track, and then joining both the existing lines at Health/Science/Jubilee.

So 35 cars maybe - still relatively a small order. But will they run a 5-minute frequency initially? I don't think the other lines started at that frequency.

How do the current cars run? They are 23 to 24 metres long, compared to the new 40-metre long Bombardier cars.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If ML arbitrarily cancels this contract, and it is seen to be without merit.......you can bet there will be litigation and if BBD wins that they will get a ton of money plus whatever their cost will be.

Sometimes you have to take a big hit in order to break a bad deal. Better that than to throw more good money after bad.

In any future ML contract, whomever is the supplier, the termination clauses and late penalties had better be solidly on the customer's side.

 

[ShonTron]

Good analysis. Though City of Edmonton has called it expansion. It's an expansion of the LRT network, although a new line. Given it intersects both existing lines, I assume it interconnects - in fact looking at the Wikipedia page for the system, the future proposed Festival line will run on part of this new track currently being built, before turning west on new track, and then joining both the existing lines at Health/Science/Jubilee.

So 35 cars maybe - still relatively a small order. But will they run a 5-minute frequency initially? I don't think the other lines started at that frequency.

How do the current cars run? They are 23 to 24 metres long, compared to the new 40-metre long Bombardier cars.

The Valley Line is operationally incompatable with the Metro and Capital Lines as much as the IRT (numbered subway routes) and IND/BMT (lettered subway routes) are within the New York Subway. They will connect, but not interconnect; it will have its own storage maintenance facility, and I don't think they will even have connecting tracks.