Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[T3G]

I am loathe to defend Metrolinx as I find their methods of doing just about anything deeply detestable, but why is their picking of a vehicle that was already in use a problem? Isn't that the advantage of building LRTs to standard gauge and voltage ratings, that they can grab something off the shelf and have it delivered in a reasonable timeframe, rather than having to specially design a vehicle that suits their needs as the TTC did?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I am loathe to defend Metrolinx as I find their methods of doing just about anything deeply detestable, but why is their picking of a vehicle that was already in use a problem? Isn't that the advantage of building LRTs to standard gauge and voltage ratings, that they can grab something off the shelf and have it delivered in a reasonable timeframe, rather than having to specially design a vehicle that suits their needs as the TTC did?

They didn't pick one in a proper manner instead they signed a contract that probably cost more than it should for no reason at all. I honestly don't understand why people seem to think that's good and also why people think that using one's that were designed for Ottawa is a good idea after the report came out that clearly shows that they were designed badly and there was no planning for the Alstom and the company who provided the signaling system to communicate with each other.

 

[nfitz]

I am loathe to defend Metrolinx as I find their methods of doing just about anything deeply detestable, but why is their picking of a vehicle that was already in use a problem? Isn't that the advantage of building LRTs to standard gauge and voltage ratings, that they can grab something off the shelf and have it delivered in a reasonable timeframe, rather than having to specially design a vehicle that suits their needs as the TTC did?

In terms of their Alstom order, the big issue was that they'd already ordered from Bombardier, and the Alstom vehicles were more expensive. So not only did they have to pay more for the Alstom cars than the Bombardier cars - they also had to pay Bombardier a large penalty for cancelling the contract.

They didn't really sole-source to Bombardier. They took some of the TTC's options from the TTC Flexity order - which was an open bid.

 

[DSC]

I am loathe to defend Metrolinx as I find their methods of doing just about anything deeply detestable, but why is their picking of a vehicle that was already in use a problem? Isn't that the advantage of building LRTs to standard gauge and voltage ratings, that they can grab something off the shelf and have it delivered in a reasonable timeframe, rather than having to specially design a vehicle that suits their needs as the TTC did?

It is probably a bit misleading to compare the TTC buying vehicles to run on a system that is already designed (gauge, hills, corners etc) with a staff who are well trained in maintenance (of the older vehicles) to Metrolinx/Ottawa who were building a 100% new system. The TTC is always going to have 'special requirements' while Ottawa could have bought standard 'off the shelf' vehicles. The fact that they bought some that appear not to have been designed to deal with an Ottawa winter is a serious (!) error and if you read the long blog posts by Steve Munro on the recent Report they screwed up in SO many other ways too. Really the classic 'shit show'.

 

[dowlingm]

I am loathe to defend Metrolinx as I find their methods of doing just about anything deeply detestable, but why is their picking of a vehicle that was already in use a problem? Isn't that the advantage of building LRTs to standard gauge and voltage ratings, that they can grab something off the shelf and have it delivered in a reasonable timeframe, rather than having to specially design a vehicle that suits their needs as the TTC did?

it will be interesting to see how they perform in service. Ottawa told people the Spirit was an already in use vehicle but the investigation report makes it clear that it was a mix of proven Citadis and non proven components due to local requirements and supply chain issues (some of which were related to the local requirement for Canadian content)

That said, at the time Alstom coming into the picture was a godsend given how abjectly Bombardier had managed the TTC order which then spilled over into the Metrolinx and ION orders. Bombardier were fortunate that Crosslinx’ delays of construction meant that if they were significantly behind on deliveries to Mount Dennis, people had stopped noticing (and in turn had started noticing the fiasco in Ottawa)

 

[crs1026]

There was never an issue with the Flexity model. The issue was that ML had signed a contract for a gazillion of them, and then the powers that be cancelled a route that they were ordered for. The whole legal issue between ML and Bombardier (which ML lost, by the way) and the shifting of orders to another builder was a bit of political theatre to save face over the oversupply and to leverage Bombardier to reduce the order without penalty. The Bombardier foulup on the TTC order was a golden opportunity, but even at the plodding pace of the TTC order, there was still time to wait for Bombardier to deliver.

In hindsight, given the delays to Crosstown, and with west (and possibly east) extensions to Crosstown back in play, there was no risk of non-delivery in time had the original Bombardier order been honoured, and the net procurement cost would have been less.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

That said, at the time Alstom coming into the picture was a godsend given how abjectly Bombardier had managed the TTC order which then spilled over into the Metrolinx and ION orders. Bombardier were fortunate that Crosslinx’ delays of construction meant that if they were significantly behind on deliveries to Mount Dennis, people had stopped noticing (and in turn had started noticing the fiasco in Ottawa)

Significantly behind? Part of the reason that Metrolinx's defence fell apart in the lawsuit, is that Bombardier had the prototypes sitting there ready to ship for months, and Metrolinx refused to take delivery, because they didn't have anywhere to put them. If Bombardier had gone into full production (which I don't think they contractually do without approval of the prototypes), they'd have built a lot of double-ended 30-metre cars, rather than the single-ended 30-metre cars and double-ended 45-metre cars that Metrolinx switched to.

Meanwhile Bombardier spent a lot of money setting up a second large production facility in Kingston (Millhaven), that turned out to be unnecessary once the Metrolinx order was reduced from 182 cars to 76 cars. In 2019, Bombardier delivered 71 TTC Flexities from Thunder Bay, giving Thunder Bay more than enough capacity to deliver 76 cars for the 2021 Eglinton opening and 2023 Finch West opening.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The irony is that Alstom "married" the Bombardier division that makes the light rail vehicles, streetcars, subway cars, and GO trains. They are just different models in the same company.

 

[Allandale25]