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Mayor John Tory's Toronto

How many times are you going to minimize the death of a human being to suit your bias?

Pot, is that you? She died doing something stupid, and the only people minimizing her death, are those who tried to spin this into something it's not.

And for the record, it's not even the first time someone's "fallen" from a balcony in police custody:

I mean you should probably include that she was thrown from the balcony by someone else in the unit, and not the police.
But I guess that doesn't line up with your bias.
 
Pot, is that you? She died doing something stupid, and the only people minimizing her death, are those who tried to spin this into something it's not.

So poor handling is not a reason Police shouldn't be responding to mental health crises, and the overwhelming number of deaths of POCs in police custody (let alone those in mental health crisis) aren't a problem?

I mean you should probably include that she was thrown from the balcony by someone else in the unit, and not the police.
But I guess that doesn't line up with your bias.

The details of the case and names have not been released to the public, 10 years later. And I cannot find any report of the SIU's findings. The SIU's mandate however involved investigating whether police were involved in her fall.


The SIU's description of the event says: "At some point during these events, a woman who was also in the apartment fell from the 11th floor balcony and sustained serious head injuries. She is being treated at the Sunnybrook Hospital and is currently in stable condition."

There were a man, a woman and police in the apartment. The man was not charged with her fall and I cannot find any later reports of his being charged with it.

"The unidentified man has reportedly been charged with offences unrelated to the woman’s fall. He is facing a total of seven charges for assault and resisting arrest."
(https://nationalpost.com/posted-tor...dings-reputation-after-womans-11-floor-plunge)

You'd think that might be something you'd be charged with.


Only one news outlet (Rogers) claimed the man tossed her over, as reported by the police.
 
Those goal posts moved real quick.
You mean from my first post about Regis on the previous page where I said "They are the last group who should be tasked with responding to people in the middle of a mental health crisis."?

Unless you want to show me some kind of proof as to whether the man was conclusively charged with tossing her off the balcony, or find the results of the SIU probe that doesn't even exist on the SIU website, it's pretty safe to say "It's not the first time someone's 'fallen' from a balcony in police custody" is the same goalpost it was before.

Police presence generally exacerbates problems in everything from domestic abuse, mental health crises, neighbourhood disputes, what have you. Police training focuses primarily on the classic "stopping the bad guys"-bs, which accounts for less than 10% of what they actually end up doing.
 
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You mean from my first post about Regis on the previous page where I said "They are the last group who should be tasked with responding to people in the middle of a mental health crisis."?

No the post where you imply that it's reasonable to assume police are throwing people off balconies.
 
So she then made a story that the police was racist and shoved her off for no reason.

Rather then" she died I want answers.."

That is like a plane crash happens and you just declare "the pilot was drunk and sleeping with the air hostess while the plane crashed " with no basis.

The family inflamed this whole situation on purpose.

You're suggesting she created an elaborate web of lies to implicate the police, starting even from moments before her daughter died. That's sick.
 
No the post where you imply that it's reasonable to assume police are throwing people off balconies.
Oh, so police are discerning types in their acts of violence then? Is throwing someone off a balcony less worse than repeatedly smashing someone in the head with a lead pipe (Dafonte Miller), literally hands-around-throat choking and having to be beaten off the victim (Yazdaan Khan)? Both Miller and Khan are PoC, and those events could have literally ended those two lives. Let alone any of the dozens of times "excited delirium"—not a medically recognized state, and seemingly caused by astoundingly excessive restraint—has been used as the cause of death for people in police custody?

C'mon. You're smarter than that. If you're enraged enough to choke someone (on duty!), you're enraged enough to toss them off a balcony. It's not always a gun. And it's more than fair to there's an assume an a-hole cop could do that to a black person in this city.

61% of the cases of police use of excessive force causing death (note, that's not just shootings)

20 times more likely to die at the hands of police than a white person in the city of Toronto. Twenty times.
 
Listen, I think we can all agree that crisis management protocols can be improved and some form of systemic racism exists not only in policing but in society in general. Frankly, though from the SIU report it seems this case was complicated and not analogous to prominent cases popularized in the US.
 
No that is an importing of American style approach to solving race issues which is an abject failure and I don't want.

As a minority I don't like people inflating racial tensions by lying.


Nothing about believing the police at all but everyone pushing such an absurd story as fact was just stupid and had a lot of negative effects on the city.

Even now people i know still think a bunch of white cops came in pushed her out the window cause they love killing black people.

You know how bad it is for people to think that is true?

We have problems in Canada but let's stop thinking its the same as America.
No in times of grief people want to blame anyone and put out absurd things.
Completely agree. In this case, neither of the family members were there for actual eyewitness reports. No one knew what happened in the room before Regis's tragic death, and the original story was a spurious Instagram story by a relative that was not even there.

It was then picked up by the professional agitator/grifter class (i.e. BLM Toronto), who were hoping to spur George Floyd-esque protests in Canada.

Yes, the police could have handled it more competently, and yes, there should be arguments about unbundling police responses and making emergency calls more situationally-sensitive, but I'm quite tired of activists, intersectionalists, and grifters attempting to import American race relations into Canada.

Yes, there are issues involving race in Canada, but they require constructive and realistic discourse, not aimlessly opportunistic rioting and destruction and a reckless charging ahead with poorly-thought ideas designed solely to appease radicals.

For the record and despite what the Jacobins might suggest, many minorities don't actually want a reduced police presence. They want a better police, not no police.

The mother seems to forget she is the one who called the police and wanted them to take her daughter to the hospital, which the police can not do.
Fundamental issue is that people cannot be hospitalized against their will outside of Form 1 (psychiatrist assessment) and Form 2 (police detainment).

Form 2 is allows police officers to forcibly hospitalize a member of the public during an emergency, but I think that's a rather blunt tool to be used in all situations, and also carries the negative stigma of force, escalation, and the shame of arrest. Instead, I think the form could be expanded to allow for a social worker to also make that assessment during a visit, with a police attachment as backup.
 
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Completely agree. In this case, neither of the family members were there for actual eyewitness reports. No one knew what happened in the room before Regis's tragic death, and the original story was a spurious Instagram story by a relative that was not even there.

It was then picked up by the professional agitator/grifter class (i.e. BLM Toronto), who were hoping to spur George Floyd-esque protests in Canada.

The classic right-wing trope of "professional activists", as though somehow if enough people are aggravated by something, a large portion are somehow getting paid for it. Aside from the fact you're starting with an assumption of impropriety, you're showing a disbelief in the existence of actual, literal outrage in a community.

Yes, the police could have handled it more competently, and yes, there should be arguments about unbundling police responses and making emergency calls more situationally-sensitive, but I'm quite tired of activists, intersectionalists, and grifters attempting to import American race relations into Canada.

Attempting? In Toronto, a black man is 20x more likely to be killed by police than a white man. <10% of the population, but 70% of police shooting deaths. That's not anywhere close to being a statistical anomaly, that shows a clear, intentional pattern.

For the record, while the data is sketchy on the city level, the U.S. Average is a black man is 2.5x more likely to be killed by police:


So you're right, it's not the same as the U.S. Our city is worse than the U.S. average.

Yes, there are issues involving race in Canada, but they require constructive and realistic discourse, not aimlessly opportunistic rioting and destruction and a reckless charging ahead with poorly-thought ideas designed solely to appease radicals.

You think riots are the first course of action for most people looking for some kind of action against injustice?

~1992: (https://ccla.org/a-recent-history-of-racial-profiling-and-policing/):
"Community groups that had organized around demands for police accountability also began to complain about the increased police presence in Black communities."

1995: (http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/timeline-tps)
"The Commission on Systemic Racism in the Ontario Criminal Justice System released its 450-page report. One of its recommendations was to develop guidelines for the exercise of police discretion to stop and question people, with the goal of eliminating differential treatment of Black and other racialized people."

2010: (http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/timeline-tps)
"The OHRC, TPS and TPSB’s Human Rights Project Charter agreement ended. The TPS and TPSB did not follow the OHRC’s advice on accountability for racial profiling, which included the recommendation that there be race-based data collection on stops. Among other things, the OHRC also recommended providing human rights, equity and diversity training and on-going professional development for all employees, to give employees with the skills and knowledge to create a working environment that fully complies with norms established by the Human Rights Code, and that is anti-racist, non-discriminatory, professional, respectful, diverse and inclusive."

2015: (https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...er-protesters-crash-police-board-meeting.html)
"Alok Mukherjee’s final meeting as chair of the Toronto Police Services Board began in dramatic fashion Thursday as protesters crashed the proceedings to demand answers about the police killing of Andrew Loku."

2020: (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-city-council-defund-police-1.5630983)
"Coun. Josh Matlow's motion, backed by Coun. Kristyn Wong-Tam, called for a 2021 police budget at least 10 per cent lower than what was approved this year and a reallocation of the savings toward community services. The motion failed by a vote of eight to 16."

What good has any lobbying of government or peaceful protesting of the kind above done if again, In Toronto, in 2020 a black man is 20x more likely to be killed by police than a white man? Right there is 30 years of a problem in Toronto that's only getting worse despite protest and appeals. I don't blame people for rioting after decades of their voices being ignored. Nor do I blame any who wish to join them in their cause. Riots get attention. Riots can't be swept under a rug like commission findings, SIU reports or vague promises to fix police. Frankly we need to wipe the slate clean and start anew, and nothing short of massive amounts of attention is going to force the change.

For the record and despite what the Jacobins might suggest, many minorities don't actually want a reduced police presence.
See above, 1992. However, I'm willing to bet what they want is safer communities, regardless of how it's done, and forcing the idea that the police are the only way that happens is part of the problem.

They want a better police, not no police.
Show me who's saying "no police", other than those wishing to push the idea of "defund the police" as an extremist view? Even the Police Abolition Movement is more about redefining what policing is, rather than having zero armed force aimed at defending the public. There will always be a need for that kind of policing, but they should be relegated to an emergency reserve team, rather than the default response for pretty much everything that's not medical distress or a fire.
 
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The classic right-wing trope of "professional activists", as though somehow if enough people are aggravated by something, a large portion are somehow getting paid for it. Aside from the fact you're starting with an assumption of impropriety, you're showing a disbelief in the existence of actual, literal outrage in a community.



Attempting? In Toronto, a black man is 20x more likely to be killed by police than a white man. <10% of the population, but 70% of police shooting deaths. That's not anywhere close to being a statistical anomaly, that shows a clear, intentional pattern.

For the record, while the data is sketchy on the city level, the U.S. Average is a black man is 2.5x more likely to be killed by police:


So you're right, it's not the same as the U.S. Our city is worse than the U.S. average.

You are I are broadly on the same side of this issue. But you're over-reaching here.

Lets compare the 2 sets of national statistics for a start.

CTV looked at the last 100 cases of police-involved death for which suicide was not the deemed cause, from 2017.

1598638544372.png


As noted at the bottom, due to omitted data these stats may look a tad better/worse (people are just as dead)

But overall, there findings were:

Based on census demographic data from 2016, the 25 Indigenous deaths represent a rate of 1.5 out of every 100,000 Indigenous Canadians being shot and killed by police, and the six Black deaths represent a rate of 0.5 out of every 100,000.

Both those numbers are well above the overall Canadian rate of being shot and killed by police, which is 0.3 per 100,000 and far higher than the rate for white Canadians, which is 0.13 per 100,000.


This would make for an Indigenous person being 5x more likely than a white person to be shot by police; and a Black person being 1.6x more likely to be shot.

****

Going over to the CBC's 'Deadly Force' page which is active an interactive, searchable database up to 2018.

We find that Toronto Police shot exactly zero people of any colour in 2018, and zero in 2017, 5 in 2016, 4 in 2015

My review of the pictures associated w/said deaths would suggest:

In 2016, of the 5 people shot by police one may be Black, 3 clearly White, one Hispanic

in 2015, 2 were Black, 1 has no photo, 1 Hispanic.

Lets now compare to our closest size U.S. counterpart.

Chicago:

According to this article: https://www.chicagotribune.com/inve...ice-shooting-database-met-20160826-story.html

Over a six year period ending 2015, Chicago PD had shot and killed 92 people. Or an average of just over 15 per year.

I compared the numbers for the same years in Toronto, we totaled 21, or 3.5 per year.

But in the 3 years from 2016-2018 we totaled 5. Or 1.6 per year

That's not to say for one moment we can't, and shouldn't do much better.

That's not to say there isn't excess police violence, and discriminatory over-policing; there are clearly both.

Not to mention botched mental health calls, such as the one above, where death is the end result and quite probably it didn't need to be that way.

But look above and you'll see you are much safer from police, including if your Black in Toronto. Period, full-stop.

Over-reach does not further the cause of reform.
 
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You are I are broadly on the same side of this issue. But you're over-reaching here.
[…]
Lets now compare to our closest size U.S. counterpart.

Chicago:

According to this article: https://www.chicagotribune.com/inve...ice-shooting-database-met-20160826-story.html

Over a six year period ending 2015, Chicago PD had shot and killed 92 people. Or an average of just over 15 per year.

I compared the numbers for the same years in Toronto, we totaled 21, or 3.5 per year.

But in the 3 years from 2016-2018 we totaled 5. Or 1.6 per year

That's not to say for one moment we can't, and shouldn't do much better.

That's not to say there isn't excess police violence, and discriminatory over-policing; there are clearly both.

Not to mention botched mental health calls, such as the one above, where death is the end result and quite probably it didn't need to be that way.

But look above and you'll see you are much safer from police, including if your Black in Toronto. Period, full-stop.

Over-reach does not further the cause of reform.
“A police force the shoots fewer people in total” isn’t the same as “a less racist police force”. And the racism is the point.

Let's compare Ontario Police Services Act vs the Chicago's "Rules and Regulations of the Chicago Police Department". Chicago—and most cities—govern their police directly, per state constitution dictum (or by default-lack thereof). Illinois has only one mention of "police" in their constitution, and that's in regards to the right to bear arms.

OPSA: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p15
R&RCPD: http://directives.chicagopolice.org...bf0-12d7c186-a4912-d7c1-8b12822c2ca106c4.html

  • In Ontario, simply unholstering a weapon by a police officer requires the filling out of a “Use of Force Report”. There's no requirement in Chicago.
  • In Ontario, police are also limited to only two justifications for unholstering that weapon in the first place: to prevent loss of life or serious bodily harm or to destroy a dangerous animal. No such limitations exist on the CPD, making things like warning shots or shooting at escaping vehicles justified in situations.
  • In Ontario, failure to report the unholstering of that weapon can lead to suspension. No such penalty exists in the CPD.
  • In Ontario, if that weapon is discharged—regardless of outcome—the chief or commissioner immediately launches an investigation. In Chicago, if a discharge occurs and no one is hit, an oral report is given to a desk sergeant to be later followed by a written report. No mandatory investigation is launched.
All of the above increases accountability on the part of the officer, and no doubt keeps fewer people from being shot. But it doesn't make them or the system less racist.

So, it's little solace to anyone of colour that they're still more likely to be killed by police than a white person in the same situation. This is a problem that has existed for decades, despite numerous attempts at reform. Protests (and riots if need be) are more than justified, IMO. We may not have the depth of problem they have, but the breadth is the same, and no level of moral superiority on the part of Canadians over the US changes that. We don't have "different" cops, they just have more eyes on them.
 

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