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paulbali
Guest
Was the notion of "mortal sin" an Ancient Hebrew one? Or a later Catholic imposition?
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andreapalladio
Guest
homosexual acts are absolutely prohibited in the Old Testament
Well, if we are going to ban everything allegedly absolutely banned in the Old Testament, then there goes seafood, and blended fabrics along with sodomy, which is common among straight people too. Presumably, since you want to impose Old Testament fundamentalism on all Christians, you advocate for slavery and animal sacrifice too.
The Old Testament also forbids cremation. Since you apparently believe the Old Testament must be followed strictly, what would you say to the relatives of those millions of Jews who were cremated in the Holocaust? That their relatives are to be condemned for not strictly adhering to the tenants of their own religion?
Where does your simple minded fundamentalism end? Or does it only apply to homosexuals?
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andreapalladio
Guest
How can they hold up a bible and bless a homosexual union?
Because, as Christians, they are following Christ's commandments: 1. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
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Abeja de Almirante
Guest
As I said earlier, we can all find lists of things outlawed in the bible that make no sense today. That said, IIRC, the bible (not only the Catholic Church) lists several activities as mortal sins, vs general things to avoid. One such mortal sin is male-on-male sodomy, as outlined in Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination" and Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Best I can tell, lesbians are fair game.Well, if we are going to ban everything allegedly absolutely banned in the Old Testament,
Again, we can all find rather commonplace activities that were not approved of in the bible, but I believe, to Judeo-Christians churches, such as the Methodists that co-founded the United Church, sodomy is up there with murder as far as sin goes.
Christians are (in the traditional churches anyway, AFAIK) both Old Testament and New Testament folks. Of course you should love your neighbour, but that's a far cry from accepting and even celebrating sinful activity.Because, as Christians, they are following Christ's commandments: 1. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
If I were gay, I would want absolutely nothing to do with any Judeo-Christian church, as the central scripture upon which they're based is clearly against me. I wouldn't want my marriage, civil union, or relationship blessed, measured or judged by any organization to which adhered to a rulebook outlawing my sexuality.
I am curious though, seriously, how United Church clergy reconcile their church's blessing of homosexual unions with the bible's clearly outlined outlawing of homosexual acts. Did they basically say, the world has changed, that part of the Old Testament is no longer relevant, same as mentions of public stoning, slavery, etc. and that only the New Testament matters anyway, which does not mention homosexual acts. One day I will have to share a coffee with a United Church minister to see how they came to reconcile this seeming contradiction.
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andreapalladio
Guest
Well, I'm not a United Church minister, but I'm pretty sure the response would be some combination of the facts that the Bible was written by men, not God; that it is not literally true; that the prohibitions apparently contained therein are the result of centuries of inaccurate translations and retranslations and the original meanings are quite different than what appears on the page today.
The central teaching of Christianity, Christ's two commandments, are not anti-gay in the least. It's the twist homophobes have put on them for the last 2000 years that causes the problem. Which continues today, obviously.
The central teaching of Christianity, Christ's two commandments, are not anti-gay in the least. It's the twist homophobes have put on them for the last 2000 years that causes the problem. Which continues today, obviously.
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drunknsubmrnr
Guest
Hmmm....
Damn....I had barbecued shrimp and pork chops just last week. During Pride too. I am SO screwed...
Kevin
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Damn....I had barbecued shrimp and pork chops just last week. During Pride too. I am SO screwed...
Kevin
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Abeja de Almirante
Guest
Quite possible. I often find though that many who consider themselves Christian have rarely if ever read the Old Testament, which is the foundation for the New. We read the juicey bits of Genesis, might look through Exodus, and then we're off to Bethlahem in time for JC's birthday. Again, if I was gay, I'd read the old Testament and say this religion's completely against my way of life, I'm going Budhist.Well, I'm not a United Church minister, but I'm pretty sure the response would be some combination of the facts that the Bible was written by men, not God; that it is not literally true; that the prohibitions apparently contained therein are the result of centuries of inaccurate translations and retranslations and the original meanings are quite different than what appears on the page today.
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building babel
Guest
Yet Christianity is crawling with homosexuals. Just down the street from me in Riverdale there is a whole church full of them, and their kids, and their parents and aunts and uncles, every Sunday. If you were gay maybe you'd be one of them.
B
building babel
Guest
... and when the gay members of this forum met last Saturday, to celebrate our good fortune and our triumph over the forces of homophobia, what should we see as we sat on the patio at Yonge and Isabella all afternoon but dozens and dozens of clerically garbed gay Christians heading off - I assume - to spread the good word!
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bizorky
Guest
Again, if I was gay, I'd read the old Testament and say this religion's completely against my way of life, I'm going Budhist.
Against being gay, against having naughty thoughts of your neighbours wife (if straight), against mixed fibres, against mixing up crops on farms, against treating your slaves badly, against anyone not involved with the protagonists of the old testament, and so on...
We're all screwed.
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Abeja de Almirante
Guest
Quite possibly, as like most I likely would not have any idea what my religion is really about. I'd probably happily drink my tea, thinking that my religion was all about loving each other, not judging each other and living through Christ's example. But one day, one day, I'd sit down and read the entire bible, and then, I'd be thinking, holly sh#t, the foundation of my religion (i.e. the Old Testament bible, upon which the New Testament is founded) outlaws my very existance. I'm outt'a here! Freak'n homophobe book!If you were gay maybe you'd be one of them.
Or maybe not....maybe I'd simply reconcile myself that the Old Testament is simply the legends and stories of the Jewish people, which has nothing to do with me, and that Genesis was a good band, and nothing more, and that I'm going to follow the parts of the New Testament that appeal to me.
I say go with what makes you happy.
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building babel
Guest
When it comes to religion, I'm inspired by the breathtaking architecture and the magnificent music, but I leave the interpretation of the "message" that produced it for others to fight over.
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cdl42
Guest
You don't even need the Old Testament. A quick reading of Matthew will show you the multitude of rules and lessons right out of the teachings of Jesus that "good Christians" like Pat Robertson seem to have no problem ignoring.
The sheer action of calling oneself a Christian means having to come to terms with the contradictions within the Bible and the contradictions between the Bible and modern moral and societal ideas and interpretations.
As ShawnMicallef wisely noted, "Quoting the Bible is not going to help us understand Christians any better".
The sheer action of calling oneself a Christian means having to come to terms with the contradictions within the Bible and the contradictions between the Bible and modern moral and societal ideas and interpretations.
As ShawnMicallef wisely noted, "Quoting the Bible is not going to help us understand Christians any better".
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ganjavih
Guest
The sheer action of calling oneself a Christian means having to come to terms with the contradictions within the Bible
How many Christians would agree that the Bible contains contradictions though?
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cdl42
Guest
I believe that coming to terms can be either a conscious decision to assess the issues or an unconscious one to simply ignore it and pick a side. I don't think it's really possible for someone who calls themselves a Christian to have no opinion (conscious or unconscious) on the matter.
That said, in my personal experience most Christians and churches I know understand that there are contradictions and develop a method to assess which side of the issue to choose. After all, one of the most important roles of Jesus was to contradict the Old Testament and point out rules which were no longer valid and rules that were misinterpreted.
That said, in my personal experience most Christians and churches I know understand that there are contradictions and develop a method to assess which side of the issue to choose. After all, one of the most important roles of Jesus was to contradict the Old Testament and point out rules which were no longer valid and rules that were misinterpreted.