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Join Israel boycott, CUPE tells members

And yes, the Palestinians have been screwed by their fellow Arabs but ignoring Israel's role in their miserable situation is being disingenuous.
I'm not ignoring Israel's role in the Palestinian's situation. However, we need to look at the entire region and see where the Palestinians are, and where they are forced into camps generation after generation: www.google.com/search?hl=...fugee+camp
Lebanon 328,360 Palestinian refugees (164,590 in camps)
Syria 308,410 (90,670 in camps)
Jordan 1,047,940 (239,180 in camps)
West Bank 477,190 (126,400 in camps)
Gaza Strip 320,470 (586,540 in camps)

Israel needs to deal with this problem, and help the Palestinians, but so do the neighbouring Arab states.

We must also remember that the only reason the West Bank is Israeli occupied today is that the Arabs, including the Palestinians attacked Israel, and lost. To the winner go the spoils, as history and current events tell us.
 
To the winner go the spoils, as history and current events tell us.

Care to expand on this? Does America own Iraq now? If America decides to conquer Southern Ontario, should be let it happen if they "win" the battles? What should happen in the West Bank now? Should Israel annex it? What will they do with the Palestinians who live there now? Ship them off to somewhere else? Who will take them? How about giving them Israeli citizenship? Would Israel even consider doing that?

As you can see, your proposals don't really make much sense, with all due respect.
 
Care to expand on this? Does America own Iraq now? If America decides to conquer Southern Ontario, should be let it happen if they "win" the battles? What should happen in the West Bank now? Should Israel annex it? What will they do with the Palestinians who live there now? Ship them off to somewhere else? Who will take them? How about giving them Israeli citizenship? Would Israel even consider doing that?

As you can see, your proposals don't really make much sense, with all due respect.
I haven't proposed anything, beyond suggesting that Israel could have (with some difficulty) annexed the West Bank and given full citizenship to the Palestinians; same as the USA gave citizenship to the conquered previously Mexican territories in New Mexico, Texas and California, plus the previously Russian citizens of Alaska, and the previously free people of Hawiai (sp?).

Yes, practically speaking, America owns Iraq, and does so until she is either forced to withdraw or chooses to. Even in the USA it's called the Iraqi Occupation, not Liberation (i.e. D-Day, Europe, etc...). The Iraqi government would fall the minute the American's left. If America conquered Southern Ontario they would for all intents and purposes own the territory, until they were either forced out or chose to withdraw. It's not about what's wrong or right; it's about what is. The Nazis owned France and most of Europe until they were forced to give it up.

I'm not going to be arrogant to suggest that we live in more enlightened times, and that what happened in the past (i.e. Europe's victory and subjegation over the natives, thus leading to the foundation of today's Canada), where the strong nations, including democracies, crushed the weak for territorial gain, does not apply to today. In my short lifetime I've seen the western democracies send armies to crush those in Vietnam, Haiti, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Domician Republic, Somalia, East Timor, Panama and Afghanistan. Some we may call noble interventions, but they remained a case of might-makes-right, wherein forces from outside came into the territory, and through force took it, to do as they chose.

Getting back to the Palestinians, my view is that the West Bank should go back to Jordan (same as Sinai returning to Egypt and parts of Golan returning to Lebanon and IIRC Syria). The peoples we refer to today as Palestinians should be given the choice between Israeli citizenship, or citizenship with their "host" states of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria or Egypt. West Jerusalem remains the capital of Israel (they'll accept nothing else), but the UN ensures free passage and residency rights to arabs in the Jordanian West Bank. In short, put things back to where they were in pre-war 1967.
 
I haven't proposed anything, beyond suggesting that Israel could have (with some difficulty) annexed the West Bank and given full citizenship to the Palestinians.

Israel would never do that and undermine the Jewish nature of the state.

Yes, practically speaking, America owns Iraq, and does so until she is either forced to withdraw or chooses to.

No, under international law, it's an occupation, not "ownership".

Getting back to the Palestinians, my view is that the West Bank should go back to Jordan (same as Sinai returning to Egypt and parts of Golan returning to Lebanon and IIRC Syria). The peoples we refer to today as Palestinians should be given the choice between Israeli citizenship, or citizenship with their "host" states of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria or Egypt. West Jerusalem remains the capital of Israel (they'll accept nothing else), but the UN ensures free passage and residency rights to arabs in the Jordanian West Bank. In short, put things back to where they were in pre-war 1967.

The issues with your view are:

First, Jordan is not interested in the West Bank, but Israel is for religious and security reasons. Second, Israel would never offer Israeli citizenship to Palestinians. Third, there is little evidence that Israel is willing to withdraw from East Jerusalem, especially since they continue to build settlement around it, in effect cutting it off from the West Bank.

Most people believe that a return to the pre-1967 borders (or something resembling that) is the best solution. Unfortunately, extremists on both sides have hi-jacked the process and the near 40-year occupation continues.
 
^And unfortunately it takes only a handful of extremists from either side to completely hijack the process. The after-effects linger and overlap.
 
First, Jordan is not interested in the West Bank, but Israel is for religious and security reasons. Second, Israel would never offer Israeli citizenship to Palestinians. Third, there is little evidence that Israel is willing to withdraw from East Jerusalem, especially since they continue to build settlement around it, in effect cutting it off from the West Bank.
So in other words, the Palestinians are screwed. The west doesn't care about them (other than using them as a stick to smack Israel with), the Arab & larger Muslim world has matyred them, while refusing to help them (i.e. hundreds of thousands are still imprisoned in 40 year old "refugee" camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria) and the rest of the world (China, Russia, South America, non-Muslim Africa, etc.) couldn't care less. Without a solution, these people are screwed.
 
Noam Chomsky: “Supporters of Israel… are actually the real enemies of Israel. They are supporting the development of a militarized, unviable society geared towards war and subservient to American interests. That’s not support for Israel in any meaningful sense.â€

also

“Since 1978 they’ve gotten something ranging between a third to a half of total American military and economic aid in the world. That’s a country of 4 million people. What the United States wants from Israel is that it become a technologically advanced, highly militarized society without any independent or viable economy of its own so that it’s totally dependent on the United States and therefore dependable. We maintain it in a position, our policy is designed to create a system of dependence with a capacity for organized violence so that we can use it as what we call a “strategic asset,†which means a kind of attack dog.â€

Israel and the United States are one in the same. I highly recommend reading “Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel & The Palestiniansâ€, “Chronicles of Dissentâ€, and “Imperial Ambitions†all by Noam Chomsky. Excellent eye-opening reads!

Israel today is one of the most brutal, violent, militarized societies on earth… with the current system of continued and unending Israeli military confrontation, sooner or later they are going to loose… most likely in a catastrophic way. That to me is not how a Jewish state (or any state) should be. It is an extremely unfortunate situation – and much of the blame can be placed on the United States.
 
Always right for true believers?

Sorry, just needling you.

Noam is interesting, but I doubt anyone can get it "right" when it comes to such an long and complex issue.
 
Israel today is one of the most brutal, violent, militarized societies on earth… with the current system of continued and unending Israeli military confrontation, sooner or later they are going to loose… most likely in a catastrophic way. That to me is not how a Jewish state (or any state) should be. It is an extremely unfortunate situation – and much of the blame can be placed on the United States.
I visited and travelled throughout Israel in November 2005, and IMO Israel is nowhere near one of the most brutal or violent places on earth. He's obviously never considered Somalia, Rwanda, Congo or a host of the world's nastier spots.

The Israel I visited was extremely pleasant, with friendly, enjoyable folks from all walks of life. I ate at dozens of outdoor cafes in both Arab and Jewish neighbourhoods. Yes, every Israel must serve in the military, but it's nowhere near a sense of military oppression to see the armed teenage and young adult soldiers.

Israel was not created by the USA. The Balfour Declaration was of British design, Israel was a made by British protectorate under the League of Nations; an organization that did not include the USA. It was Britain and France that allied with Israel against Egypt in 1956, not the USA. Yes, they have close ties today with the USA, because they share a common enemy, that of the Middle East Arabs. Of all the countries in the world, of course Israel would choose to ally herself closely with the USA, since America is the strongest military power in the land, and has more Jewish people in its population than Israel itself (not that this guarantees American assistance - no Zionist conspiracies please)

Regardless, these points are mute, for the simple reason that Israel is Israel, it's not going away. Israel is not going to loose any war, as all the neighbouring Arabs combined have tried at least four times and misserably failed each time. Iran may drop a nuclear missile on Israel one day, but then we all loose, since the retaliation will be ugly.

Israel is the only working democracy in the Middle East, and has been under constant seige from her neighbours since 1947. Under these circumstances of course Israel wants to be allied with the world's superpower. Notwithstanding this, the USA is not a very strong ally, surely they provide $ and gear, but no American soldiers came to assist Israel when in 1973 the state was almost overrun in the Yom Kippur War.

Chomsky seems to beleive that if only Israel had not allied herself with the nasty USA, and placed large emphasis on military capability, that she would be living in peace today with her neighbours. This is purely not the case. Without a strong IDF, in the Arabs would have attacked and killed every Jew they could find upon the UN's creation of Israel in 1947.
 
^Until 1947 Arabic-Speaking Jews (Palestinian Jews) & Arabs (who were Muslim and Christian) lived together in peace for hundreds of years, it is only when the arrival of European Jews to British-Mandate Palestine that drove out all non-Jewish Arabs (aka Palestinian refugees) from their homes to neighbouring Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt did all this blood-shed start.
 
The Israel I visited was extremely pleasant, with friendly, enjoyable folks from all walks of life.

Wow, I guess that means their foreign policy is pleasant, friendly and enjoyable too.
 
^Until 1947 Arabic-Speaking Jews (Palestinian Jews) & Arabs (who were Muslim and Christian) lived together in peace for hundreds of years, it is only when the arrival of European Jews to British-Mandate Palestine that drove out all non-Jewish Arabs (aka Palestinian refugees) from their homes to neighbouring Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt did all this blood-shed start.
IIRC, the newcomers did not drive out the Arabs to the neighbouring states, at least not until war began. IMO, the newcomers would have been happy to live alongside their Arab neighbours, which is certainly what I saw in November, with both Arab and Jewish Israelis living toghether.

We must remember that it was the Palestinian Arab's as well as surrounding Arab states' rejection of the November 1947 United Nations Partition Plan that started much of the trouble. The very day Israel was created in November 1947 the neighbouring Arab states and Palestinians attacked Israel's Jewish population.

If the Ottoman's had only chosen the allied side in WW1, then all this would probably not have come to pass.
 

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