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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I watched the "Not Just Bikes" video above, and I found it to be a little patronizing and frankly, incorrect. Certainly I have my gripes about GO, and the parking garages, but there seem to be some omissions that indicate a lack of research. Most of the parking lots he visits are already slated to become mixed use communities no? At least I know Oakville, Pickering, Newmarket, Danforth, Bronte, Downsview, Weston, Kipling, and a few others are. It feels weird that one would offer such a bleak view of GO without being up to date on whats actually happening with it.
 
Ward8 said:
I watched the "Not Just Bikes" video above, and I found it to be a little patronizing and frankly, incorrect. Certainly I have my gripes about GO, and the parking garages, but there seem to be some omissions that indicate a lack of research. Most of the parking lots he visits are already slated to become mixed use communities no? At least I know Oakville, Pickering, Newmarket, Danforth, Bronte, Downsview, Weston, Kipling, and a few others are. It feels weird that one would offer such a bleak view of GO without being up to date on whats actually happening with it.
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I agree with the patronizing part. His (his?) videos are starting to grate on me; the "Amsterdam is better than Copenhagen" one really made me think that the channel is becoming boosterism for Amsterdam (not that they aren't much better than us, but it gets really patronizing after a while).
 
Ward8 said:
I watched the "Not Just Bikes" video above, and I found it to be a little patronizing and frankly, incorrect. Certainly I have my gripes about GO, and the parking garages, but there seem to be some omissions that indicate a lack of research. Most of the parking lots he visits are already slated to become mixed use communities no? At least I know Oakville, Pickering, Newmarket, Danforth, Bronte, Downsview, Weston, Kipling, and a few others are. It feels weird that one would offer such a bleak view of GO without being up to date on whats actually happening with it.
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This is the first one that I have watched.

My impression:

While I generally sympathize w/his POV, I find it a bit fact light, a tad grating/patronizing and too bloody long.

Clearly the video is intended as a form of advocacy.

Great!

So long as you make it persuasive to the people you need to, in order to change the status quo.

He makes a crack in the video about being 'cancelled' by his suburban friends..............I don't think he's wrong.
In any event, he's likely to be cancelled by all the suburbanites who aren't his friend.

What he needs to do, aside from cutting back on some of the snark...............is break this video down into its fundamental concepts, and pair them w/the logical solutions.

1) Parking at GO Stations: Its mostly free, that should change, I agree. Why would people who park for free agree? Because you agree to cut the price of their train trip, by the exact same amount you charge for parking + an extra 5% for being such a good sport! You introduce a price that is manageable and in line w/the fact feeder transit couldn't handle a massive shift all at once................say $4-6 per day. But you take that off the trip from, say, Pickering, that the per trip cost drops $2.50-3.50 ($5-7 round trip)

2) Transit/Walking/Cycling infra at/to GO Stations: Pick a select number of bad stations where change can be made to happen and work; identify the service improvements for local transit required, and what's needed to handle a shift of say 20% of those currently parking, to transit. Show what kind of cycling infra you want (Bike Boulevard/Cycletrack) and where it needs to be.

Now cost those; prioritize, give Mx a case to make; and given suburbanites who drive to transit a real reason to support change.

3) Suburb-suburb commutes..........first, cut the patronizing BS and admit this is a challenge in most large cities. Transit works best with density, which is almost never uniform and tends to favour the centre over the periphery.

Yes, we can make it better. But which better would you like? We can't build 3 new cross-town GO lines............even 2 is likely only possible a generation or more from now. So prioritize 1. What route would make such commutes more possible and easier. What would it cost to build? How many commuters would it serve? What it would cost to operate? What role would Highway tolls play in its success? How would you sell the drivers of said highways on change?

I'm anti-highway, I'm anti-sprawl, I'm pro-transit.................but I also understand, I need the support of people who live in the burbs, and commute by car to change the world. Patronizing them is not the most useful way to make that happen.

Just sayin.
 
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Ward8 said:
I watched the "Not Just Bikes" video above, and I found it to be a little patronizing and frankly, incorrect. Certainly I have my gripes about GO, and the parking garages, but there seem to be some omissions that indicate a lack of research. Most of the parking lots he visits are already slated to become mixed use communities no? At least I know Oakville, Pickering, Newmarket, Danforth, Bronte, Downsview, Weston, Kipling, and a few others are. It feels weird that one would offer such a bleak view of GO without being up to date on whats actually happening with it.
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I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found the tone patronizing and dismissive. I think what irks me the most is that there's no acknowledgement that European and North American contexts are different, and no concrete suggestions on how to make the situation better. It feels like a lecture from someone who's interested in proving a point instead of helping you get to a better place.
 
I decided to watch a few more and it had a similar feel. I agreed with much of the substance, but there was a tone that irked me. In particular, he will speak about towns and cities (that I would agree are in need of help) in a really derogatory way. It feels wrong to me that we should be mean about the places people live even if they are behind in their development.

Anyway. I thought I'd leave these links. Apologies if they have been posted elsewhere, but they're relevant to the conversation. They are the last two presentations on the Oakville GO area.


Oakville has some nice surprises along with some frustrating ideas. Giving developers additional height in exchange for above ground parking would be one for the frustrating column.
 
Ward8 said:
I watched the "Not Just Bikes" video above, and I found it to be a little patronizing and frankly, incorrect. Certainly I have my gripes about GO, and the parking garages, but there seem to be some omissions that indicate a lack of research. Most of the parking lots he visits are already slated to become mixed use communities no? At least I know Oakville, Pickering, Newmarket, Danforth, Bronte, Downsview, Weston, Kipling, and a few others are. It feels weird that one would offer such a bleak view of GO without being up to date on whats actually happening with it.
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I'm not sure what he said that was incorrect. I don't know of any moves by GO/Metrolinx to get out of providing parking. Yes, they have started offering service off peak, and yes they have some limited plans for transit oriented development but nothing far enough along to prove they are going to build a community. Oakville is still a huge parking garage and a windswept parking lot. Pickering has a massive parking garage and to walk to the mall you need only take a guiness book of record length indoor bridge walkway across the highway and still it doesn't get you to the mall indoors. Newmarket GO is in the middle of a floodplain but holds some promise being centrally located, however until we see some development of those neighbouring sites without Metrolinx/GO fighting the urge to build a parking garage it remains to be seen if they can break their habit. Bronte is in the middle of an industrial wasteland. Danforth, Downsview, Weston, and Kipling are within the city and they likely would have had a hard time getting Toronto City Council on board with a big parking garage.

Don't get me wrong, Metrolinx / GO is talking and planning for transit oriented development, but they have opened three massive parking garages during the pandemic, but I don't know of a single parking lot around these stations that has converted into a medium to high density development. The GTA has more cranes than anywhere else in North America supposedly, but not a single one that I can think of is building something (garages and locations within the city of Toronto excluded) next to the GO station.
 
EnviroTO said:
I'm not sure what he said that was incorrect. I don't know of any moves by GO/Metrolinx to get out of providing parking. Yes, they have started offering service off peak, and yes they have some limited plans for transit oriented development but nothing far enough along to prove they are going to build a community. Oakville is still a huge parking garage and a windswept parking lot. Pickering has a massive parking garage and to walk to the mall you need only take a guiness book of record length indoor bridge walkway across the highway and still it doesn't get you to the mall indoors. Newmarket GO is in the middle of a floodplain but holds some promise being centrally located, however until we see some development of those neighbouring sites without Metrolinx/GO fighting the urge to build a parking garage it remains to be seen if they can break their habit. Bronte is in the middle of an industrial wasteland. Danforth, Downsview, Weston, and Kipling are within the city and they likely would have had a hard time getting Toronto City Council on board with a big parking garage.

Don't get me wrong, Metrolinx / GO is talking and planning for transit oriented development, but they have opened three massive parking garages during the pandemic, but I don't know of a single parking lot around these stations that has converted into a medium to high density development. The GTA has more cranes than anywhere else in North America supposedly, but not a single one that I can think of is building something (garages and locations within the city of Toronto excluded) next to the GO station.
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You’re forgetting about Downtown Brampton, and Mount Pleasant GO.

45 Railroad | ?m | 25s | Boardwalk REIT | Graziani + Corazza

Another high-rise in the works (26 floor). Corner of Railroad and Mill, currently the Dominion Skate Factory. Right across from the GO/VIA station. 1. An Application by KORSIAK & COMPANY LIMITED - STONE MANOR DEVELOPMENTS – (File: C1W6.70 - Ward 5) to Amend the Official Plan and Zoning By-law...
urbantoronto.ca urbantoronto.ca

Daniels Mount Pleasant Village (Phase 1) | ?m | 26s | Daniels

This one flew under the radar. A four-building purpose built rental complex, with 444 residential units and some streetfront retail units, located immediately south of Mount Pleasant GO Station. The tower will be 26 stories, with a second, six-storey midrise slab, and two three-storey rows of...
urbantoronto.ca urbantoronto.ca
 
EnviroTO said:
I'm not sure what he said that was incorrect. I don't know of any moves by GO/Metrolinx to get out of providing parking. Yes, they have started offering service off peak, and yes they have some limited plans for transit oriented development but nothing far enough along to prove they are going to build a community. Oakville is still a huge parking garage and a windswept parking lot. Pickering has a massive parking garage and to walk to the mall you need only take a guiness book of record length indoor bridge walkway across the highway and still it doesn't get you to the mall indoors. Newmarket GO is in the middle of a floodplain but holds some promise being centrally located, however until we see some development of those neighbouring sites without Metrolinx/GO fighting the urge to build a parking garage it remains to be seen if they can break their habit. Bronte is in the middle of an industrial wasteland. Danforth, Downsview, Weston, and Kipling are within the city and they likely would have had a hard time getting Toronto City Council on board with a big parking garage.

Don't get me wrong, Metrolinx / GO is talking and planning for transit oriented development, but they have opened three massive parking garages during the pandemic, but I don't know of a single parking lot around these stations that has converted into a medium to high density development. The GTA has more cranes than anywhere else in North America supposedly, but not a single one that I can think of is building something (garages and locations within the city of Toronto excluded) next to the GO station.
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I feel like something has to be said about local context. First off - let's all agree that Bloomington GO is a tire fire :) It's gonna take a lot to convince me that its location or size make any sense. But I don't see new GO stations going up with a ton of parking? For example, yes, Bramalea got a huge parking garage, but it's on Steeles and a huge number of people drive there. If that lot fills up people may make the trek down to Malton or (more likely) just take the highway into the city. Maybe a parking garage is fine there, and that's a tradeoff we're willing to make for people to take transit.

Now, should parking be free? Probably not: I agree with @Northern Light that there are things you could do with parking prices to incentivize using alternate modes.
 
ShonTron said:
You’re forgetting about Downtown Brampton, and Mount Pleasant GO.
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I don't know if Metrolinx or Brampton City Council can take any credit for making downtown Brampton transit oriented... it was already a downtown. Now there are some plans to make it better but then again they also leveled a bunch of houses recently south of the station and I think the plan is a new parking lot. I think that new south lot would be the first new lot in a decades at Brampton station since most of the parking around the station predates GO. If the plan is a parking lot then that is a bad sign for progress.

Mount Pleasant is actually one of the rare examples where a suburban station was surrounded by development that created a town like environment including walkable streets, and a town center like environment (retail and services). Yay! Mount Pleasant GO is one example where the creation of a GO station was coupled with a walkable environment, mixed use developments, and no parking garage that dwarfs everything near it.
 
allengeorge said:
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found the tone patronizing and dismissive. I think what irks me the most is that there's no acknowledgement that European and North American contexts are different, and no concrete suggestions on how to make the situation better. It feels like a lecture from someone who's interested in proving a point instead of helping you get to a better place.
Click to expand...
In a perfect world, I think that we should invest in new rail corridors to better server the whole province.

I absolutely love the GO train(even though I've only used it once a decade ago) and I want it's rail service to stretch across Southern Ontario giving automobile dominated areas another option.

Part of me dreams and the other realizes such a thing will never happen due to politics. 😞
 
Much as I agree with the substance, I don’t think that we can build transportation to connect communities as if it’s Amsterdam, when the communities aren’t built that way.The transportation has to match what’s there, at least until we see enough changes.

Our suburban built form is what it is. We need to change direction, but we can’t ignore that it will take as long, as it took to build it in the first place.

The biggest change would be nto stop building the urban form we can’t use for the future. “When you’re in a hole, stop digging” applies.

Beyond that, it will mean smaller steps.

- Paul.
 
EnviroTO said:
I don't know if Metrolinx or Brampton City Council can take any credit for making downtown Brampton transit oriented... it was already a downtown. Now there are some plans to make it better but then again they also leveled a bunch of houses recently south of the station and I think the plan is a new parking lot. I think that new south lot would be the first new lot in a decades at Brampton station since most of the parking around the station predates GO. If the plan is a parking lot then that is a bad sign for progress.

Mount Pleasant is actually one of the rare examples where a suburban station was surrounded by development that created a town like environment including walkable streets, and a town center like environment (retail and services). Yay! Mount Pleasant GO is one example where the creation of a GO station was coupled with a walkable environment, mixed use developments, and no parking garage that dwarfs everything near it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Brampton really tries to make the downtown something, rather than give up on it. Mount Pleasant is, on the other hand, a real success of urban planning.

Most of the existing lots at Brampton do not predate GO, actually.

The main lot, before GO, was made up of CN freight loading tracks and a coal yard, with a small lot. A lumber yard sat on the corner of Mill and Church until 1990 or so, when it was acquired and demolished for more parking. The secondary lot off Railroad Street was the site of a foundry.

I know all about the houses being demolished; I wrote several posts on my blog about it. Yes, it’s going to be a parking lot. At first, the intent was to use that property to replace the parking lost when Ryerson was planning its Brampton campus at the GO Station.

But now that it’s cancelled, Metrolinx is still building that lot again.
 
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