Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Hopkins123]

Not so black and white

Even most hardened subway to SCC advocate's would have welcomed a compromise for better connectivity. The LRT connected to the Crosstown was our first compromise and it was rejected. The second compromise was the subway on the RT corridor and then it was rejected.

The politics make it difficult to simplify it as Subway advocates vs LRT advocates. Most subway advocates are not happy having a 6km line with no stops but Tory has seized the opportunity politically and the stops have been completely neutered with moderate interest from the outside Scarborough council to change that.

Unfortunately most people just want action and having SCC connected was always of importance so now so it'll likely be built in his form of Smarttrack - 1 stop if Tory is back in as Mayor and council refuses to add a stop back in at the hospital. If anyone else is Mayor.... dear lord.

Ironic that we currently allegedly have the most "transit friendly" municipal, provincial and federal governments in power yet we can't even get intermediate stops funded (Brimley-Eglinton; McCowan-Lawrence) that if added in would certainly kill the notion that this subway extension would be underused or a wasteful expenditure.

It is almost like they're playing lip service to expanding rapid transit but really are leaving the door open for successive governments to cancel the project then get to claim it wasn't our fault, blame the other guys.

 

[pman]

Ironic that we currently allegedly have the most "transit friendly" municipal, provincial and federal governments in power yet we can't even get intermediate stops funded (Brimley-Eglinton; McCowan-Lawrence) that if added in would certainly kill the notion that this subway extension would be underused or a wasteful expenditure.

It is almost like they're playing lip service to expanding rapid transit but really are leaving the door open for successive governments to cancel the project then get to claim it wasn't our fault, blame the other guys.

Yes, it’s all just a conspiracy against the folks of Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

Yes, it’s all just a conspiracy against the folks of Scarborough.

If conspiracy had any truth it would be a conspiracy against all of Toronto because not much new will be built very easily going forward Politics would be even worse.

No conspiracy here just opportunistic and hardened territorial politics that has left this line in the worst possible shape heading toward an election without any stops. Thanks to Torys Smarttrack politics and Keesmats (lauded by the LRT crowd) planning. Only things as absurd as 6km underground tunnels without stops could propel Doug Ford. And here it is on a platter. I just hope Tory gets in, and council softens to add a stop

 

[Rainforest]

Yes, it’s all just a conspiracy against the folks of Scarborough.

That's your interpretation, that the original poster didn't suggest in any way.

 

[syn]

I don’t this this debate is about value or coverage for the subway side. All SSE advocates only care about a subway and the destination, no matter the cost nor coverage. On the other hand, SLRT of RT conversion advocates care about value and coverage for the money. These two ideals will never be able to cooperate unless one side gives up or one let’s the other step above. This is just my opinion, please correct me if I said anything incorrect.

Seems pretty accurate for the most part.

 

[Hopkins123]

Yes, it’s all just a conspiracy against the folks of Scarborough.

It's more like a "conspiracy" against any form of grade-separated transit in any part of Toronto/GTA really.

Hence why the DRL is still largely a napkin drawn conceptual thing at best and how tunneling/elevating the Crosstown Line east of Brentcliffe got value engineered out of existence!

Oh and inflation. What takes most other world cities of similar size and population with even similar geologic conditions to build subways hundreds of million$ at most somehow costs us billion$$ to the point that we're experiencing a perennial failure to launch any project no matter the scope. But yeah conspiracy, right?

 

[sixrings]

Some people here are asking for some compromises. They dont want transfers yet they want more stops. So here is my compromise. The problem is that Scarborough is used to a hub and spoke system out of STC but this would give more subway service for far cheaper and then you could connect things through BRT. Again nothing is perfect so I await how trashy my thoughts are.

 

[mdrejhon]

Some people here are asking for some compromises. They dont want transfers yet they want more stops. So here is my compromise. The problem is that Scarborough is used to a hub and spoke system out of STC but this would give more subway service for far cheaper and then you could connect things through BRT. Again nothing is perfect so I await how trashy my thoughts are.View attachment 124004

Actually, there was some discussion to connect Yonge-Bloor with Sheppard line -- into one huge sideways "U" -- basically Sheppard becomes green colored instead of purple.

If funds are unavoidably spent on Scarborough Subway, this is one way to reduce the combiend operating costs of both the Sheppard subway and the Scarborough extension, by merging them as one line (operational efficiencies) with the transit-amplification benefits (more riders).

Intersected by DRL-Long, that adds a lot of loops to the TTC subway network, with all the transit-amplification benefits of a true "subway grid" network like London, NYC, Paris, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing, etc. We need a lot more rapid-transit "loops" which Toronto is very poor in.

It's currently spending insanity and there are priorities first, but, that would be a potentially natural incremental extension for Sheppard+Scarborough subway. Probably not for a long time (not until after DRL-Long) but it suddenly gets put on the table as an efficiency & revenue improvement if capital is already wasted and Scarborough TTC is built.

Crazy to spend more money to fix a Sheppard Stubway and a Scarborough $3bn One-Stop, into one mega-useful Line 2, but if Sheppard happens, then this subway-interlining could happen by 2050-2060 -- the question is when -- and when people are ready for further densification opportunities along Sheppard (also depends on voter acceptance or resistance to that as well).

 

[sixrings]

Actually, there was some discussion to connect Yonge-Bloor with Sheppard line -- into one huge sideways "U" -- basically Sheppard becomes green colored instead of purple.

If funds are unavoidably spent on Scarborough Subway, this is one way to dramatically reduce the costs of both the Sheppard subway and the Scarborough extension, by merging them as one line (operational efficiencies) and with the transit-amplification benefits (more riders).

It's currently spending insanity and there are priorities first, but, that would be a potentially natural incremental extension for Sheppard+Scarborough subway. Probably not for a long time (not until after DRL-Long) but it suddenly gets put on the table as an efficiency & revenue improvement if capital is already wasted and Scarborough TTC is built.

Crazy to spend more money to fix a Sheppard Stubway and a Scarborough $3bn One-Stop, into one mega-useful Line 2, but if Sheppard happens, then this subway-merge could happen by 2050-2060 -- the question is when.

Yes I know the discussion you are referring to. However that would still go the costly route to STC with not many stations because we cant afford any and then loop back. This basically takes over the RT corridor and instead of turning east at Ellesmere it continues north to Finch. It should be able to be done cost effectively with stations however it isnt goign to the one utopia most people want. I guess the question is would you prefer more stops and it go in a direction which isnt exactly optimal or go directly to utopia but have no stops on the way.

Also merging the lines will cause operation problems as the danforth line runs more trains per hour and longer trains. however mine is a simple exchange station where people could decide to head south onto the danforth line at sheppard, go across sheppard, or take a go train.

 

[Rainforest]

Some people here are asking for some compromises. They dont want transfers yet they want more stops. So here is my compromise. The problem is that Scarborough is used to a hub and spoke system out of STC but this would give more subway service for far cheaper and then you could connect things through BRT. Again nothing is perfect so I await how trashy my thoughts are.View attachment 124004

The idea is certainly interesting, but I can see a few challenges:

1) Uncertain how the BD subway extension in the Uxbridge sub corridor will co-exist with the mainline tracks (used by GO trains and a few freight trains). The rail corridor is relatively wide between Eglinton and Hwy 401, but gets tight north of 401. Two pairs of tracks probably won't fit there.

If so, then the subway may have to be cut back to Agincourt, leaving the Finch East and Milliken stations to be served by GO RER.

2) The passenger flow from STC (and the eastern part of Scarborough) to the subway. The most pessimistic estimate for the peak time demand between STC and Kennedy is 7,000 pphpd, while a no-frills BRT can easily handle up to 2,000 pphpd. We would be either looking at more elaborate / expensive kind of BRT, or we might need 3 BRT lines running to Lawrence East, Ellesmere, and Agincourt stations.

Granted, not all of those 7,000 would be originating from STC, many would come from the feeder bus routes that could be directed straight to the subway. And yet, they would be using same three E-W corridors.

We might even need a shorter version of SLRT: running from STC west to either Agincourt or Ellesmere station. In the east, that LRT could continue to Centennial Progress campus and to Malvern. That would have a number of benefits on its own, but would certainly add to the cost.

3) The total cost. Since you didn't mention any subway conversion, I assume that line 4 is extended as a subway. The 5.5 km underground extension from Don Mills to Agincourt would cost almost as much as SSE.

Then on the BD line, the Kennedy station would have to be rebuilt. The surface subway extension would be certainly cheaper than a tunnel, but it wouldn't be very cheap; probably 1 to 1.5 billion.

Adding multiple BRT lines, and/or a shorter SLRT, we can easily arrive at double the cost of SSE.

One can argue that is would lead to a better return on investment, but it means a much larger up-front cost, and it's not clear if the City Council or Metrolinx can stomack it.

 

[sixrings]

I think the cost of Sheppard extension per km would be cheaper than the danforth extension since it would not need to be so deep but I could be wrong QUOTE="Rainforest, post: 1264647, member: 1557"]The idea is certainly interesting, but I can see a few challenges:

1) Uncertain how the BD subway extension in the Uxbridge sub corridor will co-exist with the mainline tracks (used by GO trains and a few freight trains). The rail corridor is relatively wide between Eglinton and Hwy 401, but gets tight north of 401. Two pairs of tracks probably won't fit there.

If so, then the subway may have to be cut back to Agincourt, leaving the Finch East and Milliken stations to be served by GO RER.

2) The passenger flow from STC (and the eastern part of Scarborough) to the subway. The most pessimistic estimate for the peak time demand between STC and Kennedy is 7,000 pphpd, while a no-frills BRT can easily handle up to 2,000 pphpd. We would be either looking at more elaborate / expensive kind of BRT, or we might need 3 BRT lines running to Lawrence East, Ellesmere, and Agincourt stations.

Granted, not all of those 7,000 would be originating from STC, many would come from the feeder bus routes that could be directed straight to the subway. And yet, they would be using same three E-W corridors.

We might even need a shorter version of SLRT: running from STC west to either Agincourt or Ellesmere station. In the east, that LRT could continue to Centennial Progress campus and to Malvern. That would have a number of benefits on its own, but would certainly add to the cost.

3) The total cost. Since you didn't mention any subway conversion, I assume that line 4 is extended as a subway. The 5.5 km underground extension from Don Mills to Agincourt would cost almost as much as SSE.

Then on the BD line, the Kennedy station would have to be rebuilt. The surface subway extension would be certainly cheaper than a tunnel, but it wouldn't be very cheap; probably 1 to 1.5 billion.

Adding multiple BRT lines, and/or a shorter SLRT, we can easily arrive at double the cost of SSE.

One can argue that is would lead to a better return on investment, but it means a much larger up-front cost, and it's not clear if the City Council or Metrolinx can stomack it.[/QUOTE]

 

[BurlOak]

Some people here are asking for some compromises. They dont want transfers yet they want more stops. So here is my compromise. The problem is that Scarborough is used to a hub and spoke system out of STC but this would give more subway service for far cheaper and then you could connect things through BRT. Again nothing is perfect so I await how trashy my thoughts are.View attachment 124004

The problem is, as the SSE has shown, is that a deep tunneled line with minimal stops still costs a lot of money. Thus, a short tunnel under 404 (as was the SELRT plan), along with cut-and-cover along Sheppard would likely allow for most of the stations (Consumers, Warden, Birchmount) to be put back in.

Currently, B-D is 6km and $3.5B. Your Sheppard is about the same. So essentially, you are replacing the SELRT with an at-grade (grade-separated) subway. Questions:

1. Is there space in the corridor up to Finch?
2. Could SRT be retained from McCowan (maybe even Centennial or Malvern) to Ellesmere?

 

[sixrings]

I guess I thought that if smarttrack doesn't exist then it should fit in the corridor. I'm skeptical about smarttrack and it's alleged ttc fare structure. Even with these photo ops it still feels more like an election promise than anything tangible

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Some people here are asking for some compromises. They dont want transfers yet they want more stops. So here is my compromise. The problem is that Scarborough is used to a hub and spoke system out of STC but this would give more subway service for far cheaper and then you could connect things through BRT. Again nothing is perfect so I await how trashy my thoughts are.View attachment 124004

I was wondering how this would be cheaper, since it involves a long extension of the Sheppard Line to McCowan.

Then I realized that your proposed Sheppard Extension has only one stop

Then I laughed.

Then I cried, because this is totally something City Hall politicians would push.

(Okay, I didn't really cry)

Does anyone else remember that time Councillors proposed to build the Sheppard Line without rails to save money? Good memories.

 

[sixrings]

It's not my dream plan but with scarborough people all in on subways and the cost of stations being so expensive I made a system with the bare minimum under Ground stations and the maximum above ground stations

I was wondering how this would be cheaper, since it involves a long extension of the Sheppard Line to McCowan.

Then I realized that your proposed Sheppard Extension has only one stop

Then I laughed.

Then I cried, because this is totally something City Hall politicians would push.

(Okay, I didn't really cry)

Does anyone else remember that time Councillors proposed to build the Sheppard Line without rails to save money? Good memories.