Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

But we are doing none of that.

We are building a 6km 1-stop subway that removes stations where buses could connect too, adds transfer time, and reaches very few Scarberians.

No one really wanted the one stop. Its the ugly result of turf war politics in this City. People here support better connectivity and similar transit infrastructure. But even if a stop or two is added to improve the subway you may see it as the end of transit building as Scarborough. Most here see it as going back to fix a short sighted mistake and a better start for the future. Its really only the start, even if it take many decades. People here don't care to be treated differently or have their Core isolated on "Scarberia" Island, that's why you see such high support in in far corners of Scarborough that may have end got an LRT stop closer by. It's likely even greater support on Sheppard with the stub sticking out.

Unfortunate, but short sighted, poorly detailed plans that change infrastructure right before the main Centre were an easy platform to run on and see massive support. Better to move on, fund the seamless Eglinton East LRT, as the LRT is now started and should go to completion and don't make the same mistake on Sheppard by not looking for better connected solutions. It already been called out once for the lack of support. Lots of time to figure out what to do with the stub or connect SCC to it.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

No one really wanted the one stop. Its the ugly result of turf war politics in this City. People here support better connectivity and similar transit infrastructure. But even if a stop or two is added to improve the subway you may see it as the end of transit building as Scarborough. Most here see it as going back to fix a short sighted mistake and a better start for the future. Its really only the start, even if it take decades.

Unfortunate.

That is fine and all, when we are not including the cost details of this project, other pressing city priorities, limited funds from Provincial government, and a mandated municipal debt-ceiling.

Have you seen the 1000 pages of PDF that was dropped over recent weeks by Waterfront Toronto for the Portlands and Villiers Island? It is calling for 50,000 new residents, and there is no funding available for a measly Waterfront LRT.

It is not that Scarborough should be left behind, not by any means, but some perspective is important here, since we are one city. I don't want all the oxygen to be sucked out of the room, but that is what is going to happen not just in Scarborough, but city-wide.

Let's pretend that you cared about building the DRL as much as the Scarborough subway, both must absolutely be build as soon as possible. How do you propose we go to Queen's Park asking for money for the DRL, after the Scarborough subway?

 

[OneCity]

That is fine and all, when we are not including the cost details of this project, other pressing city priorities, limited funds from Provincial government, and a mandated municipal debt-ceiling.

Have you seen the 1000 pages of PDF that was dropped over recent weeks by Waterfront Toronto for the Portlands and Villiers Island? It is calling for 50,000 new residents, and there is no funding available for a measly Waterfront LRT.

It is not that Scarborough should be left behind, not by any means, but some perspective is important here, since we are one city. I don't want all the oxygen to be sucked out of the room, but that is what is going to happen not just in Scarborough, but city-wide.

Let's pretend that you cared about building the DRL as much as the Scarborough subway, both must absolutely be build as soon as possible. How do you propose we go to Queen's Park asking for money for the DRL, after the Scarborough subway?

Have I ever gone on the DRL thread or Waterfront LRT thread to say we shouldn't build it? Nope. Scarborough is not your issue obstructing the tens upon tens of billions of capital needed in the next 50-100 years which Scarborough will be helping to pay for as well. But outsiders have been hell bent to obstruct Scarborough Centre from better connection. At the greater expense to all and some still want to study more and start over. Seriously do people really think that is a good approach to save money or help matters? The same issues still exist, political tensions will rise along with cost of any plan.

The cost of transit is massive. In the end the difference between building Scarborough Centre similar as we built North York, or far lesser non TTC areas of Vaughan (surely Richmond Hill) will be very insignificant. We need to plan better or admit mistakes were made in the past and spend the money to fix them so others are not impacted when the game suddenly changes.

I care about the City as a whole, but I don't care to see the better part of 600K people in these City have their voice drowned out, democracy disrespected, treated differently because of others who feel the need to dictate for their own benefit. There is zero compromise in the Political pro LRT crowd after all this. 99% Political support in Scarborough to do better, 2 clear election campaigns. And yet so much effort to find ways not to connect Scarborough Centre. It truly a shame.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Have I ever gone on the DRL thread or Waterfront LRT thread to say we shouldn't build it? Nope. The cost of transit is massive. In the end the difference between build Scarborough the Centre similar as we built North York, or lesser non TTC areas of Vaughan (surely Richmond Hill) will be very insignificant. We need to plan better or admit mistakes were made in the past and spend the money to fix them so others are not impacted when the game suddenly changes.

Because perhaps, the DRL and Waterfront LRT are viable transit lines that don't need to be attacked nor defended?

If we were to listen to the bold, then we would never go forward with underground subways in Scarborough.

I care about the City as a whole, but I don't care to see the better part of 600K people in these City have their voice drowned out, democracy disrespected, treated differently because of others who feel the need to dictate for their own benefit. There is zero compromise in the Political pro LRT crowd after all this.

The 600k people in Scarborough are not going to be respected a 6km non-stop, 1-stop subway that removes stations where buses could connect too, adds transfer time, and reaches very few Scarberians. They would be respected by a Don Mills subway reaching Sheppard (or Finch!) and a BRT network connecting to the subway on Don Mills.

There seems to be zero compromise going around in many directions. At what point of cost increases would you admit that the Scarborough subway is unviable? You haven't answered the question, how do we go to Queen's Park asking for money for the DRL with this in the background?

 

[pstogios]

It’s incredible that population numbers is constantly touted as an argument justifying a 1-stop super-expensive subway (along with the Scarborough Inferiority Complex / Respext Scarborough Subways Subways Subways Paychosis) but there is never any consideration, or even the slightest mention, of population density.

Some people will never learn. That’s why this thread has gone through dozens of pages of endless circles of bickering and people talking past each other. What a fiasco.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It’s incredible that population numbers is constantly touted as an argument justifying a 1-stop super-expensive subway (along with the Scarborough Inferiority Complex / Respext Scarborough Subways Subways Subways Paychosis) but there is never any consideration, or even the slightest mention, of population density.

Some people will never learn. That’s why this thread has gone through dozens of pages of endless circles of bickering and people talking past each other. What a fiasco.

As someone who just scrolled past 40 pages on his airplane flight, this is very much the case.

The issue is that once we get past the density question, and make some ground on the idea of a transit network as a superior alternative to the subway, subway proponents then resort to an argument about connecting STC to the rest of the city on the basis of being 'fair' and the only justification being "build it and they will come" (which is a disproven argument for public transit, just look at Sheppard).

STC is essentially a mall with an institutional building of a defunct former municipality in an incredibly urban-hostile built environment, that we have gerrymandered all our eastern bus routes to reach because of decades-old Provincial plans that included the ill-fated SRT. If we are talking about righting past wrongs, admitting past mistakes, planning better for the future, then serious talk needs to be had over - why STC and not Kennedy? Or Agincourt? Or the Golden Mile? Or Eglinton-East to Kingston Road?

Because as things stand right now, the only argument for connecting STC to the core by subway, and not say, Square One or Vaughan Mills, is because of the line on paper that says Scarborough is part of the City of Toronto and Mississauga/Vaughan are not. When your arguments for a subway rests on that, then it is a politically-driven argument and not one that is based on transit planning. F*ck yours, I want mine.

Could you imagine if we made decisions on public utilities in the same manner?

 

[Rainforest]

How do you propose we go to Queen's Park asking for money for the DRL, after the Scarborough subway?

Very confidently.

Let's not forget that Queen's Park is the only level of government that wasn't asked to increase its contribution (beyond what it committed anyway for SLRT) in order to build SSE. The difference is covered by the City property surtax and the federal grant.

By collecting that property surtax, the City established the pattern that can be applied to collect part of the DRL funding.

 

[Rainforest]

If we are talking about righting past wrongs, admitting past mistakes, planning better for the future, then serious talk needs to be had over - why STC and not Kennedy? ... Or the Golden Mile? Or Eglinton-East to Kingston Road?

All those locations are way too far from the northern and eastern reaches of Scarborough. Buses would take forever to get to a subway terminus located in any of those points.

Or Agincourt?

That's another matter; Agincourt could be turned into a decent hub. Local space may be a problem, but I guess some buildings surrounding it could be taken and demolished in order to make room for transit connections and for highrises.

A few pages ago, sixrings posted a scheme that basically have the BD subway extended up the Uxbridge sub corridor at the ground level, and multiple E-W lines feeding into the subway stations at Lawrence / Ellesmere / Sheppard / Finch. Some variations of that scheme could actually work, if the city council / ttc officials could be convinced to study it.

Here is the link to sixring's post: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...h-subway-extension.27288/page-52#post-1264528

Although I'm not sure the Sheppard extension really belongs on that map.

 

[Hopkins123]

But we are doing none of that.

We are building a 6km 1-stop subway that removes stations where buses could connect too, adds transfer time, and reaches very few Scarberians.

If all the bus routes converge at either Kennedy or Scarborough Town Centre as planned then the subway is in fact catering to all Scarborough commuters.

 

[Hopkins123]

Very confidently.

Let's not forget that Queen's Park is the only level of government that wasn't asked to increase its contribution (beyond what it committed anyway for SLRT) in order to build SSE. The difference is covered by the City property surtax and the federal grant.

By collecting that property surtax, the City established the pattern that can be applied to collect part of the DRL funding.

Paging Mr Brown.

 

[Rainforest]

Paging Mr Brown.

His party doesn't have a very good track record on transit over the last 20 years. Notably, the federal CPC under Harper was more helpful than the Ontario's PC.

Let's see what they come up with for the coming elections.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

If all the bus routes converge at either Kennedy or Scarborough Town Centre as planned then the subway is in fact catering to all Scarborough commuters.

Think about that sentence.

Is it all Scarborough commuters? Or merely commuters interested in taking transit to head to STC with the intention of going downtown?

If you want to commute from Scarborough to another place in Scarborough, are you interested in the subway?
If you want to commute from Scarborough to another place in Scarborough, are you interested in a gerrymandered bus route that detours to STC and not continue directly to your office park or plaza along Birchmount?
If you live along the Lawrence corridor, or anywhere west of Kennedy, are you interested in commuting in reverse-direction towards the subway?
If you have access to a car and/or are reluctant to take transit (maybe for age-related reason?), would you take the subway, when it is more inaccessible, doesn't take you to where you need to go, and requires convulated bus route transfer that dumps you off in a pedestrian-hostile location?

Or, how about the most important question for a Scarborough commuter:

Would this subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre help me bypass the Bloor-Yonge transfer?

 

[BurlOak]

His party doesn't have a very good track record on transit over the last 20 years. Notably, the federal CPC under Harper was more helpful than the Ontario's PC.

Let's see what they come up with for the coming elections.

That is true, for the 10 years that Harper was in power and the PC's were not provincially - Harper did contribute more than the PC's. I'm not sure what you expected - the PC's to put some of their campaign donations towards transit?
And after all, Harper did contribute more to transit than any PM before.

 

[Rainforest]

That is true, for the 10 years that Harper was in power and the PC's were not provincially - Harper did contribute more than the PC's. I'm not sure what you expected - the PC's to put some of their campaign donations towards transit?
And after all, Harper did contribute more to transit than any PM before.

Obviously they wouldn't use their campaign donations for transit; that wouldn't buy much transit anyway.

Maybe I wasn't clear; they did not demonstrate that they understand transit needs during any of the recent election campaign. Their line was "we will build some subways for you, but only after we balance the budget, and before that we will cut the taxes so we can't balance the budget anytime soon".

Harper did surprisingly well on the transit file, no contest. Which makes it even more surprising that his provincial colleagues can't build a sensible transit platform.

 

[Rainforest]

Sorry to say that but I think some of your points are off the mark:

Think about that sentence.

Is it all Scarborough commuters? Or merely commuters interested in taking transit to head to STC with the intention of going downtown?

If you want to commute from Scarborough to another place in Scarborough, are you interested in the subway?
If you want to commute from Scarborough to another place in Scarborough, are you interested in a gerrymandered bus route that detours to STC and not continue directly to your office park or plaza along Birchmount?

Scarborough bus route scheme follows a mixed pattern; mostly grid based but with some hub-and-spoke components. So for many trips, detours to STC aren't necessary today and they won't be necessary when the subway opens.

Most of hub-and-spoke routes that will feed into the subway station at STC, exist today and feed into the SRT station of SRT. Most of them would feed into STC even if the light rail was extended. There isn't much difference in how the bus routes will actually be laid out, no matter which transit plan is chosen for the Kennedy - STC corridor.

If you live along the Lawrence corridor, or anywhere west of Kennedy, are you interested in commuting in reverse-direction towards the subway?

If you live near Eglinton, west of Kennedy and not far from it; definitely yes.

Most importantly, neither of the competing plans touches the areas west of Kennedy. Eglinton (west of Kennedy) is getting the LRT line, but that's settled and is independent on the Kennedy - STC corridor.

If you have access to a car and/or are reluctant to take transit (maybe for age-related reason?), would you take the subway, when it is more inaccessible, doesn't take you to where you need to go, and requires convulated bus route transfer that dumps you off in a pedestrian-hostile location?

Which pedestrian-hostile location; STC bus terminal? Riders at Finch / Kipling / Downsview terminals weren't told they suffer in pedestrian-hostile locations.

Or, are the streets pedestrian-hostile? Maybe, but how would the light rail plan change that? That has more to do with the existing built form.

Or, how about the most important question for a Scarborough commuter:

Would this subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre help me bypass the Bloor-Yonge transfer?

Which of the competing plans for Scarborough would help with a transfer to Yonge (either at Bloor or at Eglinton; both are bound to be quite unpleasant)?

The only schemes that come to my mind are a GO-RER / SmartTrack line directly to STC, or an upgraded SRT extended all they way to downtown. While some of such schemes were posted on this forum, the city officials never considered them formally [perhaps such schemes are too far off the beaten path for them].

The official #1 alternative to SSE, aka the light rail plan, would have exactly same problem with the Yonge-Bloor transfer as the SSE plan.