Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kali]

When it comes to a Sheppard subway, there are compelling arguments from a ridership perspective and the way it would have to be built (tunnel) to go to VP. There is virtually no argument to extend it further east in the near to medium term; particularly in light of other priorities.

There is actually a more compelling case to extend it west; though not for reasons of ridership; but rather as a connection to Wilson Yard, to make it easier to bring trains to the Yonge portion of the line in early mornings.

Though both of these clearly rank below an R/L / Ontario Line; and Yonge North will follow that. (though for now, the case is only really there to go to Steeles, but I digress)

yes I know all of this

 

[Islington Express Bus]

Thankfully the noisy opposition to subways in Central Scarborough will be fully ignored for the Sheppard line now that it resides are the Provincial level and it will likely to continue into it's design phase next term. The line is very well supported by both the Cons and Libs at the Provincial level.

I don't think any of the transit enthusiasts here disagree with extending this line, only that it shouldn't be a priority over much more important projects, which it unfortunately probably will.

 

[OneCity]

I don't think any of the transit enthusiasts here disagree with extending this line, only that it shouldn't be a priority over much more important projects, which it unfortunately probably will.

Politically the Core of the City is hampered being heavily entrenched to one side of the spectrum, and in recent history there has been little to gain for the Cons and no reason for urgency from the Left, whereas the suburbs can be a crap shoot between all 3 parties at the Provincial level. That will continue to help the Sheppard subway moving forward with stability and may temporarily hamper the OL/RL west and OL/RL north

The current Provincial Cons have atleast shown the ability to build supportable transit in multiple areas of the City at once and do so with some form of urgency. The also have the financing means to get lines built. Hopefully this creates some pressure on others to continue to deliver going forward.

Politics will still come into play, we will never see a long drawn out, design corner cutting territorial battle over 'priority' pitting multiple needs against one another other like we saw with City 'planning'. That unfortunate amalgamated Toronto past time is done and as long as we dont stop building then pressure will mount to support all priority areas of need.

 

[Steve X]

I think they planned more service east of the station than west of the station.

If it is interpreted as that, it would mean they planned twice as much service on the 985 east of the station than west, which is the complete opposite from today's service arrangements. I believe eastbound means eastbound entering the station, not eastbound leaving the station.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

The current Provincial Cons have atleast shown the ability to build supportable transit in multiple areas of the City at once and do so with some form of urgency. The also have the financing means to get lines built. Hopefully this creates some pressure on others to continue to deliver going forward.

throwing out the entire relief line plan and starting from scratch doesn't seem like building transit "with some form of urgency" to me. Nor does throwing out the scarborough subway plan and starting that from scratch (although I do prefer the 3-stop plan).

Politics will still come into play, we will never see a long drawn out, design corner cutting territorial battle over 'priority' pitting multiple needs against one another other like we saw with City 'planning'. That unfortunate amalgamated Toronto past time is done and as long as we dont stop building then pressure will mount to support all priority areas of need.

Are you saying we will never have a fight over priority of transit projects again? That seems a little optimistic.

 

[OneCity]

throwing out the entire relief line plan and starting from scratch doesn't seem like building transit "with some form of urgency" to me. Nor does throwing out the scarborough subway plan and starting that from scratch (although I do prefer the 3-stop plan).

The OL/RL change has multiple political layers and games involved, I wont delve in too deep but I do expect this admin to accelerate progress in order to have it as 'their' line. Again this is to my point that the Cons dont really care about pissing off any hardened relief line voters in the Core as they have little lose politically aside from being able to fingerprint the the long awaited 'relief line' entirely and throw it back at the other parties, moreso those on council who refused to work with his Brother. Politics aside I still see this as a great piece of infrastructure.

The 1 stop subway was a joke, not even worth a debate as to why the stops were added. This line was a bi-product of a dysfunctional City council and a highly politicized planning dept that refused to focus on key design details in multiple projects and then teed the RT line up again for a Ford and the Conservative party in general leaving it in worse shape.

The Cons have expedited the SSE when you consider they will be starting tunneling first, and including having two boring machines. Needless to say this was likely the best path forward at this time to move quick and yet still leave a sound legacy for the people in Scarborough at this stage and also big political win. Given all the nonsense that went on to prevent any type of subway extension or even connected Crosstown LRT to the Centre the win is even bigger.

Are you saying we will never have a fight over priority of transit projects again? That seems a little optimistic.

No. What Im saying we will never have the extreme level of fight on a transit project like we saw with the Scarborough subway. Different politics now in play but the democratic voters in the areas most impacted by upgrade will be far better respected moving forward. At the end of the day whatever gets built will be supported by the majority of voters in the areas impacted instead of the vocal minority being propped up by 'priority' outsiders. That includes the OL which most impacted voters will see the line as a welcome addition and there will be no political uprising at the front of an election as we witnessed in the City. Transit City was that bad.

 

[JasonParis]

When it comes to a Sheppard subway, there are compelling arguments from a ridership perspective and the way it would have to be built (tunnel) to go to VP. There is virtually no argument to extend it further east in the near to medium term; particularly in light of other priorities.
There is actually a more compelling case to extend it west; though not for reasons of ridership; but rather as a connection to Wilson Yard, to make it easier to bring trains to the Yonge portion of the line in early mornings.
Though both of these clearly rank below an R/L / Ontario Line; and Yonge North will follow that. (though for now, the case is only really there to go to Steeles, but I digress)

I agree that any future terminuses of Line 4 would be Sheppard West station (on the west) and Vic Park/Sheppard (on the east). Anything further, either direction, would be LRT or bus-priority. Having said that, we're talking pretty far into the future.

Also, I wonder if there is an opportunity to interline Line 1 and Line 4 to VCC north of Sheppard West, should this extension ever happen?

 

[OneCity]

I agree that any future terminuses of Line 4 would be Sheppard West station (on the west) and Vic Park/Sheppard (on the east). Anything further, either direction, would be LRT or bus-priority. Having said that, we're talking pretty far into the future.

Also, I wonder if there is an opportunity to interline Line 1 and Line 4 to VCC north of Sheppard West, should this extension ever happen?

A boring machine would never hit the ground on Sheppard east without connecting to or thru the SSE stop McCowan/Sheppard station at a minimum. This is the current conceptual plan as it stands. I wouldn't be all that shocked if the take it to Markham Sheppard or Milner before its finalized. A few may not like to hear it, but don't underestimate the long standing support for connected rapid transit from the residents who live in Malvern.

Rapid bus can work as the subway continues to move forward.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

OneCity, you seem to be a strong supporter of building subway lines in suburban Scarborough, where the densities don't really necessitate it, and where lower-capacity transit solutions like LRT and BRT would provide speedy transit without the unneeded capacity and at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower cost. (I understand your insistence on connecting Scarborough Town Center to the subway to serve as a hub, and that seems logical to me, I'm mostly talking about Sheppard East here). Do you also believe we should be doing so in places with similar build forms, Etobicoke, Mississauga, Markham, Pickering, North York etc? If not, why?

 

[sixrings]

A boring machine would never hit the ground on Sheppard east without connecting to or thru the SSE stop McCowan/Sheppard station at a minimum. This is the current conceptual plan as it stands. I wouldn't be all that shocked if the take it to Markham Sheppard or Milner before its finalized. A few may not like to hear it, but don't underestimate the long standing support for connected rapid transit from the residents who live in Malvern.

Rapid bus can work as the subway continues to move forward.

I want a subway ride to the Zoo. When you're finished with that can you build one to Marine Land.

 

[ARG1]

OneCity, you seem to be a strong supporter of building subway lines in suburban Scarborough, where the densities don't really necessitate it, and where lower-capacity transit solutions like LRT and BRT would provide speedy transit without the unneeded capacity and at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower cost. (I understand your insistence on connecting Scarborough Town Center to the subway to serve as a hub, and that seems logical to me, I'm mostly talking about Sheppard East here). Do you also believe we should be doing so in places with similar build forms, Etobicoke, Mississauga, Markham, Pickering, North York etc? If not, why?

The question is whether or not those places will remain as suburbs when the Subway is build. What should be happening along these corridors is that they get zoned for High Density so that we have rapid transit connecting different parts of the city while also having strong TOD along these corridors, rather than focusing everything downtown and requiring a 20th relief line for Line 1.

 

[sixrings]

The question is whether or not those places will remain as suburbs when the Subway is build. What should be happening along these corridors is that they get zoned for High Density so that we have rapid transit connecting different parts of the city while also having strong TOD along these corridors, rather than focusing everything downtown and requiring a 20th relief line for Line 1.

in other words let us not use history as a lesson that subway stops don't magically create density (Keele, Royal York, Old Mill, Glencarin, Lawrence West, Lawrence, York Mills, Yorkdale, Wilson, Sheppard West,) and hope for the best. Great plan.

 

[ARG1]

in other words let us not use history as a lesson that subway stops don't magically create density (Keele, Royal York, Old Mill, Glencarin, Lawrence West, Lawrence, York Mills, Yorkdale, Wilson, Sheppard West,) and hope for the best. Great plan.

Then let us consider why TOD hasn't been occurring successfully, meanwhile in cities like Vancouver they have. Perhaps the government should work with real estate developers to push for more medium/high density development along these corridors?

 

[sixrings]

Then let us consider why TOD hasn't been occurring successfully, meanwhile in cities like Vancouver they have. Perhaps the government should work with real estate developers to push for more medium/high density development along these corridors?

How about the idea that NIMBYS exist and accept that reality. However places like Humber Bay Shores are begging for a subway and we are not giving it to them because some people want to label them downtown elites.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Lets say $50B is spent of subways under roads where the density does not support it (yet), how would the service look like? Would trains be ran at 15 minute or longer frequencies? How would the bus connection look like?