Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

By the way, it wouldn't be a bad idea to serve Scarborough Centre with a branch of Relief Line. Just the timing isn't favorable for that (will take decades for the Relief Line to reach the point where a branch towards Scarborough Centre could split off).

I see a problem with branching subways. If each branch can be at-grade (maybe in a hydro or rail corridor), then it could be done. If each branch is tunneled, it seems like too much money for half the service.

 

[Leo_Chan]

If each branch is tunneled, it seems like too much money for half the service.

That’s true from a certain point of view. You can also see it as normal service on the branches and double the service in the main section.

 

[jaybe]

A few pages back drum118 suggested the best solution for Scarborough riders to get downtown without a transfer from the SCT is to update the SRT line and send the trains to Union station.

Is it possible to convert the SRT to a technology that could run on the existing GO lines? With this approach:
1. The SRT would run on the existing route. It would be fully grade separated. It would have multiple stops in the future Scarborough City Center rather than one stop as proposed in the SSE.
2. The route could be extended to Malvern.
3. The route would be interlined with the existing GO Stouffville route.
4. It would be very efficient as it would have fewer stops on it's way from Scarborough to the core. In addition to the current SRT stops, south of Kennedy it would stop at (Main?), Gerrard, the future Port Lands and Union station.

Wouldn't this approach be much more cost effective and provide greater service when compared with the SSE?

Mods. Apologies if this is a question that should be posted in the fantasy thread.

 

[JSF-1]

Of course its possible. What you're suggesting is simply coverting the SRT into a GO RER branch service. The problem right now is we don't know when the Stouffville Line will be electrified or even what kind of trains will be used on the line. As well there is the issue of needing to build new trackage to STC since the current ROW would not be able to support the heaver trains used on GO RER. As well there is the question of service frequency. Currently GO RER calls for trains ever 10-15 minutes which is 2 to 3 times worse than the current service level of the SRT. You can only cram so many trains onto a line in that amount of time and getting the line down to 5 minute intervals would either require creative scheduling and major changes to some stations or re-signalling the Stouffville Line to a better system (i.e. ATC). This alone would be a pain not just in installation but getting Transport Canada to okay the change as well as permanently kicking CN off the line.

 

[transitguy]

The cost of extending SRT to Union would be comparable to the cost of building the full Relief Line, but would add much less capacity than the Relief Line. I think that's a non-starter.

Really? If they used the midtown corridor all the way to Square One, I'm sure it would be comparable to the REM project in Montreal, which is only $6B. It would make both Ford and Tory happy since it would build a rapid transit to the suburbs and it would leave room to build the SmartTrack. As a matter of fact, Ford could probably extend it on the 401 to the Pickering Town Center.

 

[OneCity]

Actually I'm surprised that the Ford government is willing to delay the SSE construction by messing with the funding formula.

I never expected them to achieve much progress on the Relief Line, Yonge North, or Sheppard during their current term; all those projects are currently unfunded anyway.

But SSE was funded, even though in the stripped-down one-stop version. They could either just build the one-stop version and promise an extension to Sheppard at an unspecified later time, or improve the deal a little by adding funding for the Lawrence East station.

Instead, they want to embark on the private-funding exercise, which isn't likely to bring much extra funding, but surely will delay the construction start. If the work doesn't start by the 2022 elections, then their Liberal and Dipper opponents will get some nice punchlines. "Look at those losers; they claim to support subways but they couldn't begin construction on a subway project that has been funded and shovel-ready 4 years ago .."

I get the reason for concern with a Conservative government and I'm not by any means saying Ford wont attempt to actually delay at some point. Its political suicide for his Toronto base, but sure anything is possible. Thus for there is no real indication there will be a tactical delay

An exercise in looking for funding for stops does not impede progress whether the is zero dollars or hundred of millions of dollars found its a no brainer to be looking for partnerships here. If there is a real delay tactic it will be with the design progress. If they delay the design or don't process a change order for the additional stops shorty then we have real delay and this game would become obvious.

Thus far there is zero evidence or indication this is the case and the its likely to be announced in the upcoming budget where well get a far better idea where the government stands on actual progress. The recent theoretical hysteria on this board that we are not moving forward doesn't add up with little evidence of real intended delay. Of course there is a process to put the stops back in that the City fearless "planner" with political aspirations and dysfunctional council stripped away. So long as the additions are moving forward into the current design things are still very on track.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Actually I'm surprised that the Ford government is willing to delay the SSE construction by messing with the funding formula.

I never expected them to achieve much progress on the Relief Line, Yonge North, or Sheppard during their current term; all those projects are currently unfunded anyway.

But SSE was funded, even though in the stripped-down one-stop version. They could either just build the one-stop version and promise an extension to Sheppard at an unspecified later time, or improve the deal a little by adding funding for the Lawrence East station.

Instead, they want to embark on the private-funding exercise, which isn't likely to bring much extra funding, but surely will delay the construction start. If the work doesn't start by the 2022 elections, then their Liberal and Dipper opponents will get some nice punchlines. "Look at those losers; they claim to support subways but they couldn't begin construction on a subway project that has been funded and shovel-ready 4 years ago .."

I don't think it's that hard to understand. Ford promised to address the government debt situation and slash taxes, all without cutting services. Something has to give. The last thing they'd want to do is spend billions on a one-stop subway extension. Any delay to this project is a win for Ontario's finances.

The Liberals did the same thing with the Sheppard East LRT and Finch West LRT, through letting their benevolent transit agency/PR mouthpiece, Metrolinx, delay those ostensibly funded and approved projects over and over and over and over again. Now the Scarbrough Subway is getting the same treatment.

et the reason for concern with a Conservative government and I'm not by any means saying Ford wont attempt to actually delay at some point. Its political suicide for his Toronto base, but sure anything is possible.

It's not political suicide. Transit was hardly an issue in the last election. I don't think the Scarborough Subway (or transit) is much of a priority for this government; they hardly said a word about it for the first six months of their term, even though they were ostensibly eager to add two more stops

 

[BurlOak]

A few pages back drum118 suggested the best solution for Scarborough riders to get downtown without a transfer from the SCT is to update the SRT line and send the trains to Union station.

Is it possible to convert the SRT to a technology that could run on the existing GO lines? With this approach:
1. The SRT would run on the existing route. It would be fully grade separated. It would have multiple stops in the future Scarborough City Center rather than one stop as proposed in the SSE.
2. The route could be extended to Malvern.
3. The route would be interlined with the existing GO Stouffville route.
4. It would be very efficient as it would have fewer stops on it's way from Scarborough to the core. In addition to the current SRT stops, south of Kennedy it would stop at (Main?), Gerrard, the future Port Lands and Union station.

Wouldn't this approach be much more cost effective and provide greater service when compared with the SSE?

Mods. Apologies if this is a question that should be posted in the fantasy thread.

Essentially, this was referred to as SmartSpur. alternating trains going from Markham, STC (or Malvern), Pickering. With 6 minute frequency for each, it means you need 2 minute frequency on the Lakeshore East. At the time, Metrolinx was not willing to give any track space to help STC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Essentially, this was referred to as SmartSpur. alternating trains going from Markham, STC (or Malvern), Pickering. With 6 minute frequency for each, it means you need 2 minute frequency on the Lakeshore East. At the time, Metrolinx was not willing to give any track space to help STC.

Guys, I think we’ve had enough schemes delay the SRT replacement. The last thing we need is one more good idea

 

[raptor]

From Line 2 East Extension Property Acquisition report:

This report recommends that TTC staff be authorized to request City of Toronto Real Estate Services to acquire the required property interests for the Line 2 East Extension (formerly the Scarborough Subway Extension) prior to the scheduled date for project construction.
The Line 2 East Extension project is a 6.2 kilometre extension of Line 2 from Kennedy Station to Scarborough Centre, via Eglinton Avenue, Danforth Road and McCowan Road. The construction of the Line 2 East Extension emergency exits, a traction power substation and the Scarborough Centre Station require various property rights to be acquired (as summarized in the Confidential Attachment).
Construction of the project is planned to commence in 2020.

 

[Rainforest]

I get the reason for concern with a Conservative government and I'm not by any means saying Ford wont attempt to actually delay at some point. Its political suicide for his Toronto base, but sure anything is possible. Thus for there is no real indication there will be a tactical delay

Well I hope they can't afford not to move forward with SSE. But, who knows ..

An exercise in looking for funding for stops does not impede progress whether the is zero dollars or hundred of millions of dollars found its a no brainer to be looking for partnerships here. If there is a real delay tactic it will be with the design progress. If they delay the design or don't process a change order for the additional stops shorty then we have real delay and this game would become obvious.

Thus far there is zero evidence or indication this is the case and the its likely to be announced in the upcoming budget where well get a far better idea where the government stands on actual progress. The recent theoretical hysteria on this board that we are not moving forward doesn't add up with little evidence of real intended delay. Of course there is a process to put the stops back in that the City fearless "planner" with political aspirations and dysfunctional council stripped away. So long as the additions are moving forward into the current design things are still very on track.

Adding some private investment money is a good idea in general, but the concern in this case is that a change in funding arrangements comes late in the game. As some mentioned here, the amount of public money saved due to private contributions might end up being smaller than the amount lost due to the cost escalation, caused by the delay.

 

[Rainforest]

It's not political suicide. Transit was hardly an issue in the last election. I don't think the Scarborough Subway (or transit) is much of a priority for this government; they hardly said a word about it for the first six months of their term, even though they were ostensibly eager to add two more stops

Transit might not be an issue that alone will decide the next elections, but SSE might cost them 2 or 3 or 5 seats.

Conservatives like to position themselves as better administrators than the Liberals; cut the waste etc. This time, Liberals will be able to counter that message, pointing to a subway line that has been nearly shovel-ready 4 years ago, and didn't move forward an inch under the Ford's watch.

Guys, I think we’ve had enough schemes delay the SRT replacement. The last thing we need is one more good idea

I think that's harmless; Metrolinx and TTC aren't know to take directions from this forum.

I believe some schemes of connecting to STC using mainline rail are viable in principle, but I don't really expect any of them to be adopted, or even seriously considered.

 

[OneCity]

It's not political suicide. Transit was hardly an issue in the last election. I don't think the Scarborough Subway (or transit) is much of a priority for this government; they hardly said a word about it for the first six months of their term, even though they were ostensibly eager to add two more stops

Ford (and Brown) was very direct about building the Scarborough subway during he campaign. There is also no doubt he has also been vocal about selling future subways to other areas of the GTA like Markham, Pickering and Mississauga.

This admin has to deliver the SSE to keep many Richmond Hill and Scarborough North (Sheppard) voters connected. Both areas are very strong in subway support and hes clearly going to use this to bring along the other surrounding GTA Centres. To say its not a priority politically is an understatement not only Provincially but to keep the full "Ford Nation" base in Toronto should they trot out another "Ford" type post Tory, I expect they are plan to do so. The reality is with a majority government no one can stop him this time around from building the lines he chooses and on the flip side he cant blame anyone if he doesn't deliver. More importantly the NDP opposition doesn't want Ford to succeed here with his promise of capital expansion, therefore he's more likely inclined to do so.

Really there was nothing relevant they should have been announcing here since they took office. Everything is moving along as well as could be possible. They are in the process of uploading the subway infrastructure, and cant allocate design funds until the upcoming budget where we will get a clear answer if the money is where the mouth is.. That's the reality of he process and its not about being eager or not. They never wavered when reiterating the ongoing support for the line.




.

 

[JSF-1]

It will indeed be interesting to see if the Province can put its money where its mouth is considering todays TTC report shows that the subway is in need of $18 Billion in investment over the next 14 years (about $1.2 Billion per year). With the upload this bill will fall squarely on the Province. If the Province is serious about taking over the Subway they better accept the fact it won't be cheap.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Please read.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...eir-system-and-what-needs-to-change-1.4982467