Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[JSF-1]

That was basically the recommendation in a Metrolinx recommendation for the SRT to connect to Eglinton Crosstown and head to Malvern.

The was a great compromise.

I wouldn't really call that a subway though. It would still have run at the surface to Kennedy and then merge onto the SRT corridor to Malvern. It was only the Fords who had the asinine idea that the EC should be buried its entire length.

 

[Amare]

Why do you say that? They've just spent a lot of money rehabbing the SRT and overhauling all the vehicles to extend the life to last another decade or so until the Line 2 extension opens.

Sure, if Doug Ford's flip-flopping extends the opening of Line 2 by another couple of decades they might have an issue - but there's no imminent failure anymore, after they spent all the money.

The key word is "expected" to last another 10 years. No one knows if the rebuild will really allow for the SRT to run until that period, it's already past it's life expectancy, and it's reliability wont necessarily improve dramatically even after the rebuild.

 

[BurlOak]

I wouldn't really call that a subway though. It would still have run at the surface to Kennedy and then merge onto the SRT corridor to Malvern. It was only the Fords who had the asinine idea that the EC should be buried its entire length.

I think the Metrolinx study being referred to is the June 2012 report.
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...itscases/Benefits_Case-Eglinton_Crosstown.pdf
This compared the fully underground option (from STC to Mt. Dennis) to the LRT option (the one currently being built) and the subway extension. The Ford plan was found to be the best (and that's by Metrolinx - a pro Liberal and anti-Ford organization).
On top of that plan, farther improvements were available.
https://skytrainforsurrey.org/2012/...uing-this-technology-and-not-lrt-on-eglinton/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why do you say that? They've just spent a lot of money rehabbing the SRT and overhauling all the vehicles to extend the life to last another decade or so until the Line 2 extension opens.

Sure, if Doug Ford's flip-flopping extends the opening of Line 2 by another couple of decades they might have an issue - but there's no imminent failure anymore, after they spent all the money.

In 2016 we invested $120 Million to extend the life of the SRT by 10 years, to 2026. It wasn’t intended to operate beyond that date.

 

[OneCity]

I wouldn't really call that a subway though. It would still have run at the surface to Kennedy and then merge onto the SRT corridor to Malvern. It was only the Fords who had the asinine idea that the EC should be buried its entire length.

The recommendation was underground to the SRT corridor. And the agreement between Ford and McGuinty came with the start of design for the Sheppard subway. Subway or not they would have removed the transfer before the Centre which is a key improvement.

Eglinton should have been grade separated at all intersections at a minimum for the benefit of all commuters types. Even then the removal of vehicle lanes was very counter productive on a main arterial in areas outside the heart of the City. Fords politics were near the mark to a large extent, just heavy fisted. We needed to meet somewhere in the middle of Ford and Millers one size fits all ideologies.

If the subway "loop", Smarttrack and the new optimised (but not fully grade separated) EELRT are able to move ahead Its actually a great plan that fills various needs and will leave a great long term legacy. Will be interesting to see how Doug deals with the EELRT.

 

[micheal_can]

A decade ago, this was an option, and likely the best option - if you mean extending it north-east.
If you want to extend it to downtown, then it's not being considered becasue of the extra delays, lack of believability that anything will be done, and the huge political capital that would be expended with nothing to show for by the next election.

Projections would now have over 12k passengers (*) per hour transferring from the SRT route to the B-D. (possibly some may transfer to Eglinton LRT). This is a huge number - maybe the equivalent of forcing every third peak Yonge subway train to completely empty out and do a transfer. The Scarborough public would not expect this and does expect that transit should actually be getting better.

(*) Based on 2012 study - http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...itscases/Benefits_Case-Eglinton_Crosstown.pdf

Lets just say it were extended towards Union. Would that not make it appealing? Would that not remove the delays?

 

[BurlOak]

Lets just say it were extended towards Union. Would that not make it appealing? Would that not remove the delays?

No doubt that would have been the ideal situation. Replace SRT with newer Mark II or III. Extend to Union (ish). It would have been accepted, and carried the necessary traffic. Especially if it were done before LRT was built. After all, LRT would be an orphan technology - something that TTC would not want.
The problem now is we already have LRT, so upgraded SRT (SkyTrain) is one extra vehicle type.
Also, with all the delays and false starts over the past 7 years - people in Scarborough would not believe that anything is actually planned to be built and it would be viewed as a delay tactic.

 

[Rainforest]

No doubt that would have been the ideal situation. Replace SRT with newer Mark II or III. Extend to Union (ish).

The cost of extending SRT to Union would be comparable to the cost of building the full Relief Line, but would add much less capacity than the Relief Line. I think that's a non-starter.

 

[micheal_can]

The cost of extending SRT to Union would be comparable to the cost of building the full Relief Line, but would add much less capacity than the Relief Line. I think that's a non-starter.

Why would there be less capacity?

 

[nfitz]

In 2016 we invested $120 Million to extend the life of the SRT by 10 years, to 2026. It wasn’t intended to operate beyond that date.

Not just 2016 ... I think work continued through 2018 ... have they even finished fully overhauling all the cars yet?

There are options if they have to extend another 10 years .. some further delay is surely likely with Doug Ford delaying the project. I'm sure they can push a year or two. They can rehab the track again. If they really want to throw money at it, they can buy some of the slightly newer BC cars and rehab them. When we started this thread, the price-tag for adjusting the track at the Ellesmere curve to handle the newer rolling stock, rehabbing the track AND extending the platforms at all the stations was only $190 million. Brand new rolling stock (44 16.7-metre long cars to replace the current 28 12.7-m long cars) was only $170 million. With all the extra taxes the city is collecting for the subway, and not able to spend - perhaps Doug Ford will accidentally keep the current SRT for another generation or two!

 

[Rainforest]

Actually I'm surprised that the Ford government is willing to delay the SSE construction by messing with the funding formula.

I never expected them to achieve much progress on the Relief Line, Yonge North, or Sheppard during their current term; all those projects are currently unfunded anyway.

But SSE was funded, even though in the stripped-down one-stop version. They could either just build the one-stop version and promise an extension to Sheppard at an unspecified later time, or improve the deal a little by adding funding for the Lawrence East station.

Instead, they want to embark on the private-funding exercise, which isn't likely to bring much extra funding, but surely will delay the construction start. If the work doesn't start by the 2022 elections, then their Liberal and Dipper opponents will get some nice punchlines. "Look at those losers; they claim to support subways but they couldn't begin construction on a subway project that has been funded and shovel-ready 4 years ago .."

 

[JSF-1]

If they really want to throw money at it, they can buy some of the slightly newer BC cars and rehab them.

Is that really an option though? BC's trains all versions of them aren't equiped for a driver so using any of there trains would mean running the SRT in full ATO mode, something I don't see happening because it would have already happened by now.

 

[Rainforest]

Why would there be less capacity?

SRT (ICTS) uses narrow cars and the trains are shorter, compared to the standard TTC's subway trains. While the cost of building a tunnel through downtown would be roughly same, whether that tunnel is used for a full-fledged subway or for a mini-subway like SRT.

If we are going to drill expensive tunnels through downtown, we should better use them for high-capacity trains.

By the way, it wouldn't be a bad idea to serve Scarborough Centre with a branch of Relief Line. Just the timing isn't favorable for that (will take decades for the Relief Line to reach the point where a branch towards Scarborough Centre could split off).

 

[BurlOak]

Why would there be less capacity?

SRT is narrower - and the trains are shorter. That part means less capacity.
Of course they could extend the train length and platforms to compensate. Then they could also have 3 platform (2 track) stations at busy locations (including interchanges) to improve passenger ingress/egress and reduce the dwell time. With that combination, I suspect they could get a capacity of 25-30k vs. maybe 35k for TTC subway.
The tunneling would be marginally cheaper due to the smaller diameter. The stations would be shorter which would save money. The smaller diameter tunnel greater the chances that cut-and-cover could be done, and possibly having this line go over the YUS instead of under. The trains, shorter than TTC subway, would be more conducive to elevation. The route would follow the Don Valley for a good chunk where the cost would be less than half of tunneling. I would have to check my earlier thinking, but I imagine that it would cost about$5B-$7B from Malvern to the Ex.

 

[nfitz]

Is that really an option though? BC's trains all versions of them aren't equiped for a driver so using any of there trains would mean running the SRT in full ATO mode, something I don't see happening because it would have already happened by now.

What has BC modified on their original 1980s cars since TTC originally approached them about the possibility of purchasing them a few years back?