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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Because of the GTS we will be seeing all-day 2-way service between Union and Mount Pleasant by the end of the year. The issue is a shortage of engineers, trains, and scheduling. But it wouldn't have happened without GTS.

Which year? The fiscal year in which it was promised (which is just a moving promise from before GTS was planned) ends on March 31....think it has pretty well been accepted that it is not happening by then and the promise will slide forward.


Not to mention the UPX, as well as grade separation that was required for electrification, GO RER, Smarttrack.

If you are going to mention UPX then you have to take my $1.3B figure and add in about $450MM more because it had it's own budget. I could have phrased my comment like this "they spent $1.75B on the corridor and the only tangble benefit we have yet to see is the UP"

Just because a project doesn't yield immediate results doesn't mean it was not worthwhile or needed.

I never once said it was not worthwhile or needed...it was absolutely needed...but only in the context of actually providing service.....the post I was responding to was one that was comparing the relative abilities of ML and TTC in transit planning/building. The fact that ML spent a whack of money on a project that took 5 years and could not plan ahead during that time to have the staff to run the trains to take advantage of that spend is hardly something that a supporter of them should tout as a "positive".

None of the aforementioned can happen without the GTS work that took place.

No doubt...but most of it hasn't happened with it either ;)
 
Renew Scarborough Newsletter

For anyone interested. Great to see the community leaders banding together to provide an overdue voice for Scarborough. Heavy support in Scarborough for the Eglinton extension and SSE to be funded and built

"ConnectScarborough is seeking to increase public awareness of this plan and also advocate that this plan gets built. These proposed transit projects are investments in our community, however the benefits are constantly drowned out by opponents that don’t live in Scarborough, who don’t understand the value and necessity of the plan, and who continue to argue against long-term transit planning in Scarborough." http://www.connectscarborough.ca/

I have no affiliation whatsoever for now. But it hopefully sheds some light that my views here are not the least bit unique. Feel free to discuss, but please be respectful.
 
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Renew Scarborough Newsletter

For anyone interested. Great to see the community leaders banding together to provide an overdue voice for Scarborough. Heavy support in Scarborough for the Eglinton extension and SSE to be funded and built

"ConnectScarborough is seeking to increase public awareness of this plan and also advocate that this plan gets built. These proposed transit projects are investments in our community, however the benefits are constantly drowned out by opponents that don’t live in Scarborough, who don’t understand the value and necessity of the plan, and who continue to argue against long-term transit planning in Scarborough." http://www.connectscarborough.ca/

I have no affiliation whatsoever for now. But it hopefully sheds some light that my views here are not the least bit unique. Feel free to discuss, but please be respectful.

"provide an overdue voice for Scarborough..." - which is fine but they ignore a large number of Scarborough residents who are not supportive of the subway plan, who feel it's not the best use of limited transit funds, who feel that the decision was not made with objective evidence. You dismissed Scarborough Transit Action as a "broken record special interest group", even though they are also from Scarborough. Both sides have a lot of fence-mending to do.
 
Don't forget we had a poll in December, that said people in Scarborough favoured the LRT over the subway. A lot favoured subway, but more wanted the LRT.

So if we really wanted to support the people in Scarborough, we'd build LRT not subway.
 
"provide an overdue voice for Scarborough..." - which is fine but they ignore a large number of Scarborough residents who are not supportive of the subway plan, who feel it's not the best use of limited transit funds, who feel that the decision was not made with objective evidence. You dismissed Scarborough Transit Action as a "broken record special interest group", even though they are also from Scarborough. Both sides have a lot of fence-mending to do.

They are a minority Scarborough group . Very smart choice for the name

Don't forget we had a poll in December, that said people in Scarborough favoured the LRT over the subway. A lot favoured subway, but more wanted the LRT.

So if we really wanted to support the people in Scarborough, we'd build LRT not subway.

Toronto Star Poll. (This comment goes for any Politically biased media poll). Also we should be asking who support the 3-4 stop vs 1 stop and Smarttrack. Youll see where the real support and issue is. Not 1 stop vs. SLRT


Everyone can have their opinion here and I respect that. As strongly as I feel I know its a fight where you can scream as loud as possible and people wont listen as the message has been heavily controlled for quite some time. Just know I am sincere here so please respect it.

First and foremost I dont want to see further delay, if we have to get the really poll next election again so be it. Lets put it right on the ballot next election and see where the fight is coming from? You'd be naive not to question why almost all Malvern councilors support the SSE when its not going to Malvern? Or why the Liberals were "subway champions" in Guildwood one of the few areas which is truly divided on SSE/SLRT. Support is here.

IMO If they keep up this fight, things are going to get uglier Politically, not better and this may have reverse results. Politicians playing Politics is not unique to Scarborough. Look at how Vaughan got their extension its not even hidden. Does anyone care? This City is headed an ugly space Politically if these people really feel the need to keep fighting. Again if it means that much and you believe... I encourage anyone to fight for what they believe.

Very unfortunate. My only thought right now
 
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Toronto Star Poll. (This comment goes for any Politically biased media poll)
Forum poll.

Biased? Who was it who called the mainstream media the enemy of the people? Given the Liberal support for the subway, I don't know how the Star showing otherwise is bias.

Even the last National Post poll backed adding more stops to the subway to make it 4 stops. This 1-stop subway is an absurd waste of money, and achieves so much less than LRT.

This City is headed an ugly space Politically if these people really feel the need to keep fighting. Again if it means that much and you believe... I encourage anyone to fight for it.
I really doubt most people care enough about the issue to tell the truth.
 
They are a minority Scarborough group .

Therefore they should be ignored? Okay then.

Meanwhile your "subway champions" oppose subway maintenance.
Councillor Mary Fragedakis moved a motion to fund the $1.2 million for the subway reliability program, which TTC CEO Andy Byford told council would help cut down on track-related subway delays by up to 30%. “I think we owe it to subway users. I know they’ve put up with a lot of subway closures, they’ve put up with no air conditioning on subway cars, they’ve put up with trains too full to get on in the morning and other delays,” said Fragedakis.

Her motion was defeated in a vote of 18 to 26. Tory was opposed.
 
Don't forget we had a poll in December, that said people in Scarborough favoured the LRT over the subway. A lot favoured subway, but more wanted the LRT.

Polls on specific issues are meaningless. Results vary wildly depending on how you phrase the issues? So LRT advocates would ask "Do you want a seven-stop LRT or one-stop subway", while subway advocates would ask "Do you want an LRT that takes 40 minutes to get from STC to Bloor-Yonge, or a subway that takes 30 minutes?", and each gets to ignorantly claim that the vast majority of the public is on their side.

Let's look at how Forum described the two options in that poll:
A Scarborough LRT would travel along the route of the Scarborough RT to Markham and Sheppard, would have seven stops and was originally estimated to cost about 1.8 billion dollars. Would you approve or disapprove of a Scarborough LRT like this?

The planned Scarborough Subway Extension will travel from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre, will have one stop and will cost more than three billion dollars. Do you approve or disapprove of the planned Scarborough Subway Extension?

This is what's commonly known as a push-poll. Misleading cost comparison in favour of the LRT ("was originally estimated to cost" vs. "will cost"). No description of the SSE's benefits. It's not designed to properly gauge public opinion. It's designed to push uninformed respondents towards one particular answer. It's not a surprise that people favour the LRT in this poll. Push-polls don't mean anything.

It's also not a surprise that Forum doesn't publish this poll's methodology on its website, because garbage like this would make them look bad - it's hidden away in the U of T library (where I downloaded the poll documents) and nowhere else.
 
Sure, but some act like Scarborough is united and everyone wants subway. The truth is very different though.

Ok. Who cares? I don't think meaningless should be the deciding factor between a subway and an LRT. And neither should meaningless numbers like distance or the number of stops. The decisions should be based on benefits to people and the cost of those benefits. Is it worth spending an extra billion dollars to shorten the round trip from Northern Scarborough to/from East York and Downtown by 20 minutes for ~6 million annual round trips? That's the real debate we should be having, and there's no objective answer to that question.
 
Therefore they should be ignored? Okay then.

Meanwhile your "subway champions" oppose subway maintenance.

They are entitled to make as much noise as they feel is necessary. We all are.

At this juncture of the debate, they are being ignored. The majority of Community leaders, University Leaders, Political leaders, Business leaders and Residents (Downtown media polls aside) in Scarborough are all ignoring these people now and banding together to set the record straight. It is what it is. Great strategic choice of name, ill give them that. The only notable support they have in Scarborough Politically is Paul Ainsle. All other councilors, Provincial MPs, and Fed support the SSE. Even likely soon to be councilors like Jennifer McKelvie who will be the likely incumbent to take Ron Moesers seat in another non-subway area of Scarborough is on board and fighting hard to get the real voice out.

Im just shedding light on reality vs. what is being discussed in the media. They can keep fighting all they want the more they fight against the greater wishes of Scarborough, the more fuel they are adding for these people to vote for a polarizing Mayor again. I don't think they realize this as they are used to being the only voice controlling the perception. But its gone too far, actually far past that point, as weve had two consecutive elections with public warning signs of an underlying problem and they still don't care to acknowledge this. Even worse they keep pushing out the same polarizing Political agenda.

End of the day Tory will either get the SSE and Eglinton LRT funded or he's likely in big trouble in Scarborough. Doug will rip him apart for killing the 3-4 stop by adding in the unnecessary cost of Smarttrack. And Scarborough residents will pile on out of spite of what others just don't care to understand and aren't being told. Its not even about LRT or SSE at that point, its much bigger again

So first and foremost I believe Tory is going to make this happen as he and almost everyone else looking to get elected anywhere in Scarborough knows this. Very clearly. But if for some reason Tory doesn't then its back to square one and well get the answer once again with likely the worst election weve ever seen. And I would strongly argue the need to put this question on the Ballot so we can put an end to this poor reporting and see the real numbers. We'll also get to see where the support is really coming from.


Re: Maintenance
Do you really think an area the size of Scarborough with no Subway to its core gives a crap about public transit maintenance concerns? Just building the SSE and the full Eglinton LRT alone will be enough to start to see a massive shift in unity towards united Political concerns and the upkeep of our public transit network. As apathetic as I am right now, Im optimistic that if we get the current plans built the City will have much better unity moving together in the future. The operational and maintenance fight will be City wide one day with one strong voice going to Queens Park, but its not even close right now. So Politicians are off the hook until then.
 
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It's also not a surprise that Forum doesn't publish this poll's methodology on its website, because garbage like this would make them look bad - it's hidden away in the U of T library (where I downloaded the poll documents) and nowhere else.

Can you share the poll methodology, and what exactly is garbage about it?
 

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