Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

I am really starting to wonder whether even the LRT is a good use of funds.

At the start of this debate, I was of the opinion that LRT was a good deal for Scarborough. They were getting a more expensive infrastructure than the ridership demanded. This was before Stintz proposed the subway.

For Line 3, anything less than the fully grade-separated LRT that was proposed would be inadequate for both current ridership and providing room for growth. But for Sheppard, BRT probably would have been sufficient. Though given the political impasse on that one, buses may very well end up being the permanent configuration. The dreaded transfer will still exist though! The only difference is that instead of looking like this...

...it will look like this.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Moscow has a 6.6-kilometre tunnelled stretch with no stations between two stops on its Line 3, but there are no stations to protect a federally protected forest.

This is what subway-advocates in Scarborough want so badly:

That is 8 minutes of being stuck in a tunnel.

I already find the ride between St. Clair West and Eglinton West unbearable...

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Certainly. City Planning has been working under the assumption that all trains will be going to Scarbrough Centre, which is a fairly irresponsible assumption, in my opinion, as there really isn't any planning reasons for the TTC to operate more than every second train to STC.

Running every train to Scarbrough Centre at 2 min 20 second headways would require 13 additional BD trainsets; running every second train would require 7 trainsets. This is a substantial difference in fleet requirements that will have significant impacts on fleet procurement, operation costs and maintenance costs.

The TTC's preferred option, even with the original 3-stop extension (with twice the ridership as the 1-stop) was always to have every second train turn back at Kennedy. I don't know why City Planning seems to think that the TTC would now want to run every train to STC. The TTC only runs every second train north of St. Clair West, and they'll only run every second train north of Downsview when TYSSE opens, and both those segments have higher ridership than the SSE.

City Planning would be wise to run modelling with trains at 4 min 40 second headways, to determine what the impact on ridership would be, as that's what this extension will probably operate on. Given that the SSE at 2 min 30 sec showed no ridership growth over the existing STC station on the SRT, Id expect ridership at STC on the SSE to be lower than it is today.

This adds perspective on the LRT option.

The LRT would be much more frequent than the SSE (and probably be less packed as a consequence, kind of like how lower frequency on Sheppard means it 'looks packed' at rush hour), so after factoring in wait-time, the LRT would likely be much faster for Scarborough commuters than the subway, even after factoring in the transfer.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This adds perspective on the LRT option.

The LRT would be much more frequent than the SSE (and probably be less packed as a consequence, kind of like how lower frequency on Sheppard means it 'looks packed' at rush hour), so after factoring in wait-time, the LRT would likely be much faster for Scarborough commuters than the subway, even after factoring in the transfer.

While I don't agree that the LRT would be faster, it is true that the time savings of the subway have been overstated. As you know, when calculating the travel time savings of the Scarborough Subway Extension from various points within the borough, the time savings are usually on the scale of a minute or two; absolutely tiny. The SSE won't be revolutionary for travel in Scarborough, and in fact it will represent a service degradation for commuters who won't use STC station.

Most ironically, even for people far east in Scarborough, bypassing the Scarborough Subway to use the Relief Line Long on Don Mills Avenue would be faster than the SSE, because of the wide stop spacing of that line.

 

[BurlOak]

It's not full circle it would be a Political take over part way into the circle at an opportune time. The Mayor is warning council not to do it. Its a Political disaster of epic proportions heading into next election if they do this.

People wanted better, & weren't given anything better. Left/Right, Urban/Suburban... This will put all of us in the entire City back even further. The only motion for change should be to look at other subway alternatives. If the RT is upgraded itll be a somewhat expensive temporary solution costing us further money as this isn't going to end because the Left wants it to on their terms while turning a bind eye. Before im flamed by those you think I "speak for everyone" I never claim to whatsoever but I fully get the overall tone as its CLEAR to unless you chosen to bury head is buried in the sand. I can with say with full confidence this is going to be very ugly Politically on all levels but mainly Municipally if Tory is forced to revert to transfer LRT

Get the popcorn ready. Were about to find out.

Maybe we are best to vote down the Scarborough subway and explore other options. The current crop of Councillors and MPPs obviously are incapable of pushing any plan forward. Lets spend a couple of years to find a better solution and the next group can implement it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Maybe we are best to vote down the Scarborough subway and explore other options. The current crop of Councillors and MPPs obviously are incapable of pushing any plan forward. Lets spend a couple of years to find a better solution and the next group can implement it.

Well, two things are for certain.

- If the subway is approved this week, within two years Council will be debating this item again when prices rise above $4 Billion, as Staff suggest it can
- If the LRT is approved, some subways, subways, subways candidate will materialize.

Either way, this debate is not finished.

 

[Rainforest]

For some reason suburbanites would so badly rather squish themselves into a subway train for long distances when meanwhile GO RER can get you downtown more than twice as fast and in far greater comfort. Distance wise, it's like demanding a subway extension to Square One while ignoring the GO line that runs next to it.

Those reasons are very well known: high price of short trips on GO; in case of Scarborough, no TTC co-fare; very infrequent GO service compared to TTC; many GO stations are inconveniently located and are very poorly served by the surface feeder routes.

Had GO RER been a more viable option at present, as opposed to in the uncertain future, the whole debate would have a different tone.

 

[Rainforest]

I already find the ride between St. Clair West and Eglinton West unbearable...

I find that ride much superior to being stuck on a sardine-packed bus crawling in mixed traffic.

North of Eglinton, that subway line is never too busy. You don't always find a seat, but you have plenty of room around you if you have to stand.

 

[nfitz]

I already find the ride between St. Clair West and Eglinton West unbearable...

Why? Because it's too fast?

Unlike Scarborough, it's hard to see where they could have put another station. Maybe on Bathurst north of Heathdale - but the vertical difference is nasty.

 

[Rainforest]

Well, two things are for certain.

- If the subway is approved this week, within two years Council will be debating this item again when prices rise above $4 Billion, as Staff suggest it can
- If the LRT is approved, some subways, subways, subways candidate will materialize.

Either way, this debate is not finished.

Whether the subway or the LRT is selected, it will go over budget and the opponents will growl constantly.

If the city goes back to LRT, the price tag will likely reach the point where it will look more expensive than the subway (even though the subway price could escalate as well, but noone will be re-evaluating the potential cost of the abandoned subway project).

And yes, if SSE is not upheld then it will become a major election issue.

 

[RyanM12]

Skytrain to Malvern is the best option.

 

[Hopkins123]

Whether the subway or the LRT is selected, it will go over budget and the opponents will growl constantly.

If the city goes back to LRT, the price tag will likely reach the point where it will look more expensive than the subway (even though the subway price could escalate as well, but noone will be re-evaluating the potential cost of the abandoned subway project).

And yes, if SSE is not upheld then it will become a major election issue.

Thank you. It's just not tenable to suggest you recycle the SRT corridor for mass transit at this point. Too costly and controversial to reverse now. TigerMaster likes to talk about 9000 displaced riders the subway option leaves out in the cold but neglects to mention that after 30+ years of the SRT, nothing affronts the corridor other than backyards and industrial backlots. No growth potential at all. The subway meanwhile would bring a boom to the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth triangle (even if a station doesn't go there right away) as well at Lawrence and at Sheppard @McCowan. Limitless growth potential.

It's a city building exercise to extend the subway. The SRT is a failed corridor dotted by bypass zones that smell like rotten eggs.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The subway meanwhile would bring a boom to the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth triangle (even if a station doesn't go there right away) as well at Lawrence and at Sheppard @McCowan. Limitless growth potential.

There will be no stop there. That's never even been an official proposal.

It's a city building exercise to extend the subway. The SRT is a failed corridor dotted by bypass zones that smell like rotten eggs.

How successful do you anticipate this city building exercise being, when after 20 years of
population growth, and 700,000 new Torontonians, City Planning is projecting no growth in trips to STC over 2012 levels.

 

[coffey1]

Thank you. It's just not tenable to suggest you recycle the SRT corridor for mass transit at this point. Too costly and controversial to reverse now. TigerMaster likes to talk about 9000 displaced riders the subway option leaves out in the cold but neglects to mention that after 30+ years of the SRT, nothing affronts the corridor other than backyards and industrial backlots. No growth potential at all. The subway meanwhile would bring a boom to the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth triangle (even if a station doesn't go there right away) as well at Lawrence and at Sheppard @McCowan. Limitless growth potential.

It's a city building exercise to extend the subway. The SRT is a failed corridor dotted by bypass zones that smell like rotten eggs.

I agree the corridor sucks. I have learned not to argue it too much here because the bigger issue is the transfer. And most peeps here don't even are to acknowledge that as a problem. The industrial route which cuts off instead of going to central Scarborough drive me insane. But hey we can only debate so many flaws.

The atrocious route was a "cheap and easy" design to go up the rail corridor decades ago & "Cheap and easy" always fails to deliver.

 

[ssiguy2]

Skytrain to Malvern is the best option.

Exactly.

I'm being very serious when I say that only in Toronto would this even be a discussion. No other place in their right mind would spend $3 billion for rapid transit for the sole purpose of replacing another functioning rapid transit line.

The garage/maintenance centre is already there, it's fast, comfortable, safe, has low operating costs, will take {by far} the least amount of time to build, the least amount of disruption, a total continence of current operations, and be the cheapest to boot. Does anyone see the irrationality of even having the conversation?

When the obvious best option isn't even considered you know that Toronto public transit projects are dolled out the same way Montreal highway projects are.