Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

TigerMaster, you are talking too much sense. You are too rational for this conversation. Let's get back to talking about how Scarborough is Forver Disrespected and how It's Only Scarborough. That's what we want to really hear about. That's all that really matters - how can "I Get No Respect" Scarborough finally get what they "deserve".

You can keep your facts, logic, fiscal intelligence and prudence.

p.s. I hope you all sensed my sarcasm there.

Yea we get your a funny Scarborough basher. Guess its not trolling in your world when it's Scarborough bashing


Scarborough DESERVES better integration. The plan on Sheppard and the SLRT is not the right nor is the one stop subway. But since weve hardly had time to digest and no one is offering anything new. We are stuck with "that" group trying to stuff a rejected flawed plan without offering anything new.

Surface subway would be much better the Surface LRT
Converting the Sheppard Subway to LRT and connecting a straight line would be much a better design.

Scarborough has no Political media voice to throw out an assault of bias articles, bias polls etc. Its all "transit haves" Left political media, polls, etc on the attack as Toronto's Right Political party has no intention of being involved in public transit building. So Scarborough is being forced to take it or leave it as the LRT plan is being "trumpeted" with only facts which show it in a beautiful light and it's even more opportune being compared to this expensive "one stop" subway plan. No one is fighting to address the main issues in the LRT plan which is causing this this exhausted debate.

The fact the a there is no willingness to budge on these clear integration design flaws from the opposition is inexcusable. Not one budge after all that's gone on the last 6 years Politically. Divisive & shameful.

 

[coffey1]

I bet those 9,000 people who take the SRT now that'll be forced to take the bus won't be too happy.

Very untrue & misleading here.

Smarttrack will cover most of those peeps at Lawrence and Scar-Durham BRT is planned to be rejigged to include for McCowan & Centennial College. Funny no one ever mentions this BRT line.

Not saying I agree with this "one stop" plan whatsoever but your arguments are false. A surface subway resolves all issues here when compared to both plans. But what can you do?

 

[sixrings]

What happened to The Scarborough Mirror?

 

[JGHali]

It's a pawn of Torstar and downtown elites.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What happened to The Scarborough Mirror?

I have it on good word that vampires can't see their own reflection in a mirror. Perhaps their writers are vampires?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Very untrue & misleading here.

Smarttrack will cover most of those peeps at Lawrence and Scar-Durham BRT is planned to be rejigged to include for McCowan & Centennial College. Funny no one ever mentions this BRT line.

Not saying I agree with this "one stop" plan whatsoever but your arguments are false. A surface subway resolves all issues here when compared to both plans. But what can you do?

Smarttrack will cover most of those peeps at Lawrence and Scar-Durham BRT is planned to be rejigged to include for McCowan & Centennial College. Funny no one ever mentions this BRT line.

SmartTrack, which runs between Mt. Dennis and Ellesmere, was anticipated to move only 14,000 people per day, under a TTC fare system. It's highly unlikely that all of the 9,000 displaced Scarborough RT riders will be using SmartTrack, as they represent a small portion of SmartTrack's coverage area. Furthermore, SmartTrack will almost certainly have some kind of fare premium attached to the service. I don't believe it is acceptable to make these people pay an additional fare.

But regardless of fares, SmartTrack represents a significant degradation in service for these Scarborough commuters. Waiting times for SmartTrack trains will be 15 minutes; trip times between Scarborough and most locations in Downtown Toronto outside of the direct vicinity of Union Station will be longer than the subway. This makes SmartTrack an unattractive service compared to existing options, and is why it has such low ridership.

 

[ssiguy2]

Thanks for the map Salsa, much appreciated.

So I have a few questions......
1} if this is almost a completely grade separated line then why don't they just fix the RT and extend it for a few km and save $2 billion and a shut down of the SRT?
2} if this is nearly all grade separated except for one little spot, why don't they grade separate the whole line and automate it to save money on operational costs?
3} how does it cost $2.9 billion for an 11km LRT when Calgary is building a 40km LRT line including a downtown tunnel for $4 billion and yet both are expected to open at about the same time?

 

[coffey1]

What happened to The Scarborough Mirror?

Hi-jacked by Metroland media.Main articles are usually informing Scarborough of all the big issues nagging downtown residents and what they are fighting for these days. Lots of bike lanes and how bicycle riders need respect articles on the front pages. Much of what is Scarborough related is LRT promotion and then a few small fairly neutral Scarborough articles in between the real estate listings. Quite sad but atleast the real estate listings are of Scarborough properties. lol

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

3. What is the net travel time savings for this subway extension? Will the time saved by eliminating the transfer offset the travel time delays that will be experienced by the 9,000 daily Scarborough commuters who will now be forced to take the bus?

Also, if the train is short-turned at Kennedy, then I imagine many Scarborough commuters will be forced to transfer to STC anyway.

Thanks for the map Salsa, much appreciated.

So I have a few questions......
1} if this is almost a completely grade separated line then why don't they just fix the RT and extend it for a few km and save $2 billion and a shut down of the SRT?
2} if this is nearly all grade separated except for one little spot, why don't they grade separate the whole line and automate it to save money on operational costs?
3} how does it cost $2.9 billion for an 11km LRT when Calgary is building a 40km LRT line including a downtown tunnel for $4 billion and yet both are expected to open at about the same time?

I am really starting to wonder whether even the LRT is a good use of funds.

At the start of this debate, I was of the opinion that LRT was a good deal for Scarborough. They were getting a more expensive infrastructure than the ridership demanded. This was before Stintz proposed the subway.

Now I feel like if Council votes against the one-stop subway, we have gone full circle. I wouldn't be surprised if what we end up with is an SRT upgrade.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Here's another damning Scarbrough subway tidbit: it's projected to carry 9,000 fewer people per day than the SRT does today. And boardings at Scarborough Centre in particular are expected to be about the same as 2012 levels

Meanwhile in Paris,

When you read things like that, it makes this point quite stark: We have no idea what we are doing. It really is a joke how Toronto chooses, plans, builds and maintains public transit.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Toronto,

 

[coffey1]

[QUOTE="WislaHD, post: 1131451, member: 57468"]
Now I feel like if Council votes against the one-stop subway, we have gone full circle. I wouldn't be surprised if what we end up with is an SRT upgrade.[/QUOTE]

It's not full circle it would be a Political take over part way into the circle at an opportune time. The Mayor is warning council not to do it. Its a Political disaster of epic proportions heading into next election if they do this.

People wanted better, & weren't given anything better. Left/Right, Urban/Suburban... This will put all of us in the entire City back even further. The only motion for change should be to look at other subway alternatives. If the RT is upgraded itll be a somewhat expensive temporary solution costing us further money as this isn't going to end because the Left wants it to on their terms while turning a bind eye. Before im flamed by those you think I "speak for everyone" I never claim to whatsoever but I fully get the overall tone as its CLEAR to unless you chosen to bury head is buried in the sand. I can with say with full confidence this is going to be very ugly Politically on all levels but mainly Municipally if Tory is forced to revert to transfer LRT

Get the popcorn ready. Were about to find out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also, if the train is short-turned at Kennedy, then I imagine many Scarborough commuters will be forced to transfer to STC anyway.

Certainly. City Planning has been working under the assumption that all trains will be going to Scarbrough Centre, which is a fairly irresponsible assumption, in my opinion, as there really isn't any planning reasons for the TTC to operate more than every second train to STC.

Running every train to Scarbrough Centre at 2 min 20 second headways would require 13 additional BD trainsets; running every second train would require 7 trainsets. This is a substantial difference in fleet requirements that will have significant impacts on fleet procurement, operation costs and maintenance costs.

The TTC's preferred option, even with the original 3-stop extension (with twice the ridership as the 1-stop) was always to have every second train turn back at Kennedy. I don't know why City Planning seems to think that the TTC would now want to run every train to STC. The TTC only runs every second train north of St. Clair West, and they'll only run every second train north of Downsview when TYSSE opens, and both those segments have higher ridership than the SSE.

City Planning would be wise to run modelling with trains at 4 min 40 second headways, to determine what the impact on ridership would be, as that's what this extension will probably operate on. Given that the SSE at 2 min 30 sec showed no ridership growth over the existing STC station on the SRT, Id expect ridership at STC on the SSE to be lower than it is today.

 

[salsa]

And the Bloor-Danforth would be a 32-35 stop line. What is even your point? What's more logical, adding stops to a stub line that'll incur a transfer or adding stops to the connective tissue main line that links right across town transfer-free?

For some reason suburbanites would so badly rather squish themselves into a subway train for long distances when meanwhile GO RER can get you downtown more than twice as fast and in far greater comfort. Distance wise, it's like demanding a subway extension to Square One while ignoring the GO line that runs next to it. But alas, here we are, in our infinite planning wisdom, on the brink of approving a subway extension that will run underground for over 6 km without stopping. A distance unprecedented in TTC history, if not even the western world.

What's more logical, adding stops to a stub line...

Isn't the whole point of adding more stops to a stub line, is so that it would not be a stub line anymore? Call it what you want but at his point, the subway is projected to carry less riders than even the existing RT line, let along the extended one.

What I find misleading is the all the expenditures the LRT proponents willingly ignore like the billion dollar reno the LRT plan would require at Kennedy or shutting down the SRT indefinitely and all the shuttle buses that would require to pick up the slack.

The shutdown is not "indefinite". Metrolinx said it would be up to three years and they would find ways to reduce it even further. Meanwhile subway proponents were being deliberately misleading by citing 4 years. If a surface subway along the RT corridor becomes the preferred solution, then there will still be a shutdown.

Thank you @TheTigerMaster for putting all these other falsehoods to rest.

In the end the supposed $500 million cheaper LRT plan may not come out to be so cheap after all.

You mean like the time when the three stop subway was originally promised to be "only" $500 million more than the LRT? Those were the good times.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You mean like the time when the three stop subway was originally promised to be "only" $500 million more than the LRT? Those were the good times.

The cost escalations from the new delayed schedule, and detailed engineering work alone will liekely be more than $500 Million above the current low balled $3.2 billion estimate.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

For some reason suburbanites would so badly rather squish themselves into a subway train for long distances when meanwhile GO RER can get you downtown more than twice as fast and in far greater comfort. Distance wise, it's like demanding a subway extension to Square One while ignoring the GO line that runs next to it. But alas, here we are, in our infinite planning wisdom, on the brink of approving a subway extension that will run underground for over 6 km without stopping. A distance unprecedented in TTC history, if not even the western world.

Moscow has a 6.6-kilometre tunnelled stretch with no stations between two stops on its Line 3, but there are no stations to protect a federally protected forest.

This is what subway-advocates in Scarborough want so badly:

That is 8 minutes of being stuck in a tunnel.