Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

How quickly I forget things....I thought the official MOU is for LRT and the City has never executed an MOU for a subway? Or have I got it reversed?

- Paul

The province recognized they would have to amend it for a subway. At the end of the day, it's whoever holds the cheque that has all the power.

This time the Liberals put their necks on this one and I don't see them changing their minds

 

[RyanM12]

I guess the one stop subway isn't so bad, as long as there are provisions to infill a Lawrence East station in the future.

 

[macookie]

This is the likely the best compromise, to build 20-stop Eglinton East LRT, and branch it to go up McCowan to STC. (as it solves, the transfer problem at Kennedy, unless people jump on the SmartTrack for the quicker ride downtown) Eventually the DRL can be extended to Eglinton... making a second option for transfer downtown.

Maybe in time... a link between STC along Ellesmere (or along the current SRT going east-west). It could be possibly tied into the DRL, if development substantially increases at the STC and warrants an actual subway stop.

Here's my brilliant idea for compromise.

Cancel the 1-stop subway extensions and build the 7-stop LRT in its place and the 20-stop Eglinton East LRT. People on the Eglinton LRT will have a single seat ride between Scarbrough and Yonge, where they'll transfer into Yonge Line; this is the same amount of transfers as people would face with the Line 2 extension. This'll deliver a 1-transfer experience to more people in Scarbrough than the subway would.

For people who must have a single seat ride downtown, there's SmartTrack.

 

[salsa]

lets agree to ignore or atleast not directly respond to each other posts directly going forward? I certainly wont be responding to you unless you get personal again. Cant force you as you love to mention me often but would be a good #Compromise

Although I will continue to respond with my general non personal opinions to member on this board when I choose to. Please do the same

Thx.

For the most part I've already been avoiding responding to most of your posts, just not as much recently. But I want to be clear on what my position is on Scarborough transit, which I posted about a few days ago but I'm not sure if you read it.

I fully agree that the Sheppard subway transfer should be eliminated. However I preferred the SRT conversion to LRT because it would have provided rapid transit to Centennial college and neighbourhoods in north-east Scarborough that has some of the most difficult commutes. At almost 12 km, it would have been a substantial line too compared to the current stub. It's been argued that the subway better supports development in STC, but the chief planner (before being arm-twisted by Tory) previously stated that the LRT would better serve "city building" goals than the subway because it's east-west alignment would better facilitate expansion of the STC area with an additional stop at McCowan and possibly another stop at Brimley added in the future. This was a "flaw" in the subway plan that city planning identifies in its report.

Nevertheless, I am not under any illusion that politically the LRT plan could be revived despite attempts by some councillors. I could have supported the "optimized" one-stop subway when it meant getting the Crosstown east extension along with it, but now that's under threat too since all the available funding is literally going towards a hole in the ground that keeps getting deeper and more expensive. Therefore I cannot support this subway under any circumstances until they find ways to drastically cut down it's insane cost by bringing it above ground. Once that's done, then I'd like to see a complete rethink of the Sheppard LRT. Have it turn south to STC and use the existing SRT infrastructure, then extend it to Malvern along the same elevated alignment that the previous SRT light rail plan would have used. And of course, convert the Sheppard subway to LRT.

I've laid it all out on a map. Is this a fair compromise in your opinion?

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Amazingly, it took a prominent Toronto Star columnist (of all people) to articulate a reasonable case for building the subway. Something which staunch defenders like you and GDB are unable to do yourselves.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-the-scarborough-subway-extension-keenan.html

The Waterfront Toronto reference was interesting. I would never have considered that kind of plan for STC because I regard it as a regional mall. Is it possible to think of it as an industrial neighbourhood as per the Harbour that needs to change? Maybe. Will people that live in the neighbourhood now wish to live through 25+ years of continual construction and change? Harbourfront's one great advantage was very few people living nearby when they started.

 

[bill r]

For those who missed it, I'm still pushing for SmartTrack 2.0.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

 

[Rainforest]

Source: http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2542/lrt-preferred-to-subway-in-scarborough

Well, the poll is based on the false assumption that the one-stop subway extension costs more than 3 billion, while the 7-stop LRT costs only 1.5 billion. From the recent TTC's report, we know that the cost estimate for the LRT option went up quite a bit, to as much as $2.9 billion.

Since the pollsters have deliberately misled the respondents, their results are simply invalid.

 

[Rainforest]

Let’s build a rapid transit network for Scarborough now

For the cost of a one-stop subway, long-forgotten east-end residents can be served by 24-stop LRT system

From link, in The Star.

By Josh Matlow, and Paul Ainslie
Thu., July 7, 2016

Those two City Councillors are aware, or should have been aware, of the recent cost estimates for the subway and the LRT options made by TTC. Obviously, if the subway costs $3.16 billion and the LRT alternative to it (one line) costs $2.9 billion, the difference cannot pay for the second LRT line.

If the said two City Councillors disagree with the recent TTC reports, they should at least aknowledge the existence of such reports, and explain why they do not trust them.

Instead, they chose to ignore the TTC reports and attempted to deliberately mislead the readers into thinking that both LRT lines can be funded if the subway is not extended.

 

[coffey1]

Well, the poll is based on the false assumption that the one-stop subway extension costs more than 3 billion, while the 7-stop LRT costs only 1.5 billion. From the recent TTC's report, we know that the cost estimate for the LRT option went up quite a bit, to as much as $2.9 billion.

Since the pollsters have deliberately misled the respondents, their results are simply invalid.

Its all politics before the vote. Pollsters are tied directly to Political parties and should be taken with a grain of salt. Who knows what area they even contacted in Scarborough. The Star throws out an opinion piece of a guy from Etobicoke asking for a National Park If Scarborough gets an extension. Savages.

I'm interested to see how this vote turns out . IMO we're either going to know if some type of subway is moving forward or we'll likely our Municipal Politics head to another level of insanity with an LRT reversal.

Does anyone think this will end well?

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm lost on where this 7 stop LRT line would go and the route. Would it still use the SRT alignment and would it be extended further north or east? Map?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Did anyone else see that comment from the TTC saying that the costs of the subway are almost certain to escalate further due to the tight timeline? I think I saw that in an article today somewhere, but I can't find it now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ahh, found it.

So the $3.2 Billion price for the subway extension is basically a minimum price. According to City staff, the subway extension is no longer on schedule, which will push up costs beyond $3.2 Billion. We also haven't yet done detailed engineering work yet, which will add additional cost escalations. The detailed engineering work alone was anticipated to increase costs by up to 30%, and then they'll be additional costs on top of that because of the new schedule. So this $3.2 Billion project could easily balloon beyond $4.2 Billion.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the LRT plan, even at $2.9 Billion; because there isn't nearly as much room for cost escalations with that project.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ed-over-bid-to-resurrect-scarborough-lrt.html

 

[salsa]

I'm lost on where this 7 stop LRT line would go and the route. Would it still use the SRT alignment and would it be extended further north or east? Map?

For those who are interested, there is a whole treasure-trove of old documents at this link. The line would have used the whole SRT alignment, and extended to Sheppard (phase 1) on a similar elevated structure like the existing RT. Phase 2 would have went one stop further to Malvern Town Centre.

Between Scarborough Centre and Centennial college, the line follows a creek until Markham Rd. Then it curves north and runs parallel to Progress Ave along the west side of the street. Further north within the residential areas, the line runs below grade in a tunnel that would be built cut-and-cover under a hydro corridor. Sheppard station would be underground, Malvern station (phase 2) would be elevated.

Centennial College

Malvern

 

[Hopkins123]

I'm lost on where this 7 stop LRT line would go and the route. Would it still use the SRT alignment and would it be extended further north or east? Map?

"7 stop LRT line" is a misconception the pro-LRT crowd likes to throw around to bolster their position. It's really 5 of the six preexisting SRT stops (minus Ellesmere Stn) plus new stops at Centennial College and Sheppard/Progress.

So really a two-stop LRTway extension vs. the so-called one-stop subway extension.

 

[salsa]

"7 stop LRT line" is a misconception the pro-LRT crowd likes to throw around to bolster their position. It's really 5 of the six preexisting SRT stops (minus Ellesmere Stn) plus new stops at Centennial College and Sheppard/Progress.

So really a two-stop LRTway extension vs. the so-called one-stop subway extension.

It may be a 2 stop extension, but it's still a 7 stop line at the end of the day so I don't know why you find that misleading. But if you want to use that logic, then the subway is a zero stop extension since it only replaces an existing station at Scarborough centre instead of expanding to new neighbourhoods. Apparently it's misleading to count existing stations according to you, so I apologize for my propaganda.