Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

If we actually cared about creating a well-designed transit plan that serves people in Scarborough, we would need to push a hybrid plan. Either interlining the Scarborough LRT with the Crosstown and eliminating the transfer, or by scrapping both LRT and Subway plans and pursuing a spur line of SmartTrack/GO-RER.

Unfortunately, the second option is a non-starter because the branch of SmartTrack / RER would be too infrequent to carry all riders from Scarborough.

The first option is (was) potentially possible but has its issue, too: a risk of overloading Eglinton LRT that is not designed for the combined load of local riders and commuters from Scarborough.

 

[Rainforest]

Honestly, I think the best plan would be to change the Sheppard subway to LRT and to infill some new stations. Then have branches in Scarborough: 1) McCowan branch to STC 2) Progress branch to Malvern TC 3) Sheppard East branch to the zoo.

That may be possible, but will require custom (high floor) vehicles and a different surface stop design (accessibility).

This option certainly has its merits for the Sheppard corridor, in terms of cost vs functionality. It would be interesting to see a detailed cost estimate, compared to low-floor Sheppard LRT currently on the table.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

At this point, my phasing for Scarborough would be:

1) Focus on double-tracking and electrification of the Stouffville corridor. Build stations at Ellesmere and Lawrence East, and then extend all STC-bound bus routes to the new RER station at Ellesmere. This would allow the SRT to be shut down completely, and would allow the corridor to repurposed for express tracks for the Stouffville RER corridor.

2) Complete the Eglinton LRT to Kennedy. Obviously, 1 and 2 can be done at the same time, and one may be completed slightly before the other.

3) Rebuild the SRT elevated structure and extend it to Malvern, to allow it to run RER vehicles. Naturally, Ellesmere would cease to be the terminus of many bus routes, as the line would be extended further into Scarborough.

4) Build the SELRT and convert the Sheppard Subway to use LRT technology. This can be done by shutting down half the platform and lowering it, switching the tracks and power systems to LRT, and then lowering the other half. The SELRT would have a spur to STC via McCowan.

All this, exactly. This would be my proposal for Scarborough too. Transit planning done right, looking at existing infrastructure and commuter experience instead of politicking.

@44 North & @Rainforest , I think that the line frequency will be pretty good on Stouffville, especially after Kennedy. You will have 5 trains an hour each from Malvern and Unionville, 3 trains from Stouffville. A train every 4.6 minutes after Kennedy, and a train every 12 minutes on Malvern the spur. One can debate if the frequency is too low for the STC/Malvern spur, but STC/Malvern is pretty far away from the core of the transit network, doesn't really have the ridership to warrant higher frequency, plus the time would be made up the much quicker commute downtown (from STC) or from the mere existence of a transit line (in Malvern). It's only really seen as a loss from the standpoint of the more frequent SRT, and only from STC. I know others have suggested a rush hour service to boost frequency on the Malvern spur in past discussions too.

 

[Rainforest]

I live in Etobicoke, which isn't exactly criss-crossed with subways....and I don't feel we got stiffed out here. What am I missing?

Etobicoke's transit situation is not ideal, but it is in a better position than Scarborough. Once the Spadina extension is complete, almost every resident of Etobicoke will be within a 15-min bus ride from a subway (either TYSSE or Bloor). Finch LRT will help even more, making the ride to subway faster for those living near Finch.

 

[Rainforest]

BILD says that Scarborough subway should not be built, but their legal challenge is only about the scale of development charges. If they win, and get those $165 million sliced off their charges, they will not care what the city actually builds in this corridor.

Even if they win, the amount in question will not, by itself, reverse the course. The city can either collect that amount by increasing the residential surtax, or scale back the subway project and end the line at STC.

Although, if there are other significant cost increases during the planning or early design phases, then the outcome of the BILD appeal might influence the fate of SSE. In addition, the legal challenge might delay the project even if BILD loses at the end.

 

[Rainforest]

@44 North & @Rainforest , I think that the line frequency will be pretty good on Stouffville, especially after Kennedy. You will have 5 trains an hour each from Malvern and Unionville, 3 trains from Stouffville. A train every 4.6 minutes after Kennedy, and a train every 12 minutes on Malvern the spur. One can debate if the frequency is too low for the STC/Malvern spur, but STC/Malvern is pretty far away from the core of the transit network, doesn't really have the ridership to warrant higher frequency, plus the time would be made up the much quicker commute downtown (from STC) or from the mere existence of a transit line (in Malvern). It's only really seen as a loss from the standpoint of the more frequent SRT, and only from STC. I know others have suggested a rush hour service to boost frequency on the Malvern spur in past discussions too.

I understand the appeal of this proposal.

But, running "a train every 4.6 minutes after Kennedy" is a huge challenge, given that they are going to operate according to the mainline railway rules, share the corridor with Lakeshore East / VIA / freights west of Scarborough Junction, and feed into the Union station.

In fact, anything more frequent than "every 15 min after Kennedy" requires addressing some botlenecks, and anything better than every 10 min may not be doable at all without a massive rebuilt of the whole corridor.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

BILD says that Scarborough subway should not be built, but their legal challenge is only about the scale of development charges. If they win, and get those $165 million sliced off their charges, they will not care what the city actually builds in this corridor.

Even if they win, the amount in question will not, by itself, reverse the course. The city can either collect that amount by increasing the residential surtax, or scale back the subway project and end the line at STC.

Although, if there are other significant cost increases during the planning or early design phases, then the outcome of the BILD appeal might influence the fate of SSE. In addition, the legal challenge might delay the project even if BILD loses at the end.

I suspect their best case scenario is negotiating paying less than they currently do - that seems unlikely as the costs get refined and edge upwards.

I think those of us appalled by how the decision-making went are naturally excited someone is "fighting the subway," but, yeah, the odds of it getting stopped are extremely minimal and even if you agree with their ultimate goal and the heart of their point (the ridership projections), it's very easy to be cynical about why they're doing it. It would be nice to think BILD is standing up for taxpayers or residents or transit riders or even affordable housing, but it's really almost entirely selfish, is the reality.

I kind of wish them luck, in that one would like to think the city takes a hard look and realizes it's not worth it. Practically speaking, that seems unlikely. And anyway, if they get reduced DCs and the extra cost gets passed on taxpayers, well, that hasn't really helped any of us, has it?

 

[gweed123]

Yeah, I guess. I hope that project warms people up to any benefits of elevated structures. And do you think it's at all possible to connect the Stouffville line to the CP corridor, and if so perhaps that could be a decent way of branching the Stouffville line and bringing RER service to NE Scarboro? I was thinking about this fantasy map I made last year, which was to utilize the SRT guideway to bring a new Crosstown East route to SC. But if it were to fully terminate at Scarb Centre, I think another means like a Stouffville RER branch using CP could be used to reach Malvern and eventually north Pickering. So Scarb would still get RT, but also benefit from RER. I dunno, just an idea.

If the situation was ideal, Scarborough should actually be going before the Junction, since there's less sensitive land uses around Scarborough compared to the Junction. And unfortunately a connection between the Stouffville corridor and the CP mainline would be pretty difficult to do, given the topography.

I understand the appeal of this proposal.

But, running "a train every 4.6 minutes after Kennedy" is a huge challenge, given that they are going to operate according to the mainline railway rules, share the corridor with Lakeshore East / VIA / freights west of Scarborough Junction, and feed into the Union station.

In fact, anything more frequent than "every 15 min after Kennedy" requires addressing some botlenecks, and anything better than every 10 min may not be doable at all without a massive rebuilt of the whole corridor.

The bigger capacity constraint is actually the Stouffville corridor south of Kennedy. Metrolinx has enough room to add tracks to LSE, if warranted. This is why I proposed the shuttle idea, which would stop at Kennedy and avoid the south Stouffville capacity constraint. North of Kennedy, the SRT ROW can be used to lay mainline rail tracks.

And even if these upgrades do need to take place, their cost pales in comparison to the cost of the Scarborough Subway.

 

[Amare]

Etobicoke's transit situation is not ideal, but it is in a better position than Scarborough. Once the Spadina extension is complete, almost every resident of Etobicoke will be within a 15-min bus ride from a subway (either TYSSE or Bloor). Finch LRT will help even more, making the ride to subway faster for those living near Finch.

I beg to differ; the Spadina subway extension will have little to no impact on the travel time it takes to get to a subway station in Etobicoke. There are only 4 stations that serve Etobicoke and once the Spadina extension is finally open, there will continue to be 4 stations that serve Etobicoke.

The only difference between subway access between Etobicoke and Scarborough is that the B-D crosses though the centre of Etobicoke, while in the east it only enters Scarborough's southwest border. Etobicoke adapted and is focusing their city centre around Kipling and Islington, Scarborough could have chosen to adapt but the focus has remained on STC. Etobicoke had every reason to keep their "city centre" where it was (Burhamhhorpe and Highway 427 area) but planned things to adapt. The concept of STC failed, but certain politicians have trouble moving on with that and they are trying to make it viable by giving the area a subway.

The constant complaining with Scarborough not having enough transit is valid, but they are not the only area of the city that has a vast transit dessert swath.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Spadina will vastly increase transit access in northern Etobicoke. Sure, it doesn't technically cross into Etobicoke, but it saves a significant amount of time spent stuck on a bus. Travel times will be further reduced with the Finch LRT.

Burnhamthorpe and Highway 427 is not the "old" plan. Both the "current" downtown of Etobicoke and Scarborough were set up at the same time, along with North York Centre and the forgotten York Centre, which was abandoned after the cancellation of the Eglinton subway.

 

[44 North]

All this, exactly. This would be my proposal for Scarborough too. Transit planning done right, looking at existing infrastructure and commuter experience instead of politicking.

@44 North & @Rainforest , I think that the line frequency will be pretty good on Stouffville, especially after Kennedy. You will have 5 trains an hour each from Malvern and Unionville, 3 trains from Stouffville. A train every 4.6 minutes after Kennedy, and a train every 12 minutes on Malvern the spur. One can debate if the frequency is too low for the STC/Malvern spur, but STC/Malvern is pretty far away from the core of the transit network, doesn't really have the ridership to warrant higher frequency, plus the time would be made up the much quicker commute downtown (from STC) or from the mere existence of a transit line (in Malvern). It's only really seen as a loss from the standpoint of the more frequent SRT, and only from STC. I know others have suggested a rush hour service to boost frequency on the Malvern spur in past discussions too.

GO is already a bit of a premium service, and one of the things I fear is that RER will make it even more so. With rapid transit, we know what we're getting. With GO I feel there are too many Qs as to pricing and service we'll see, but it seems certain that the fare will be more than a standard TTC token. If Scarborough felt slighted by a series of canceled/shortened plans (the majority of which happened long before Ford), then I think they most definitely will feel slighted by a promise of rt being exchanged for a less frequent / higher fare service.

And then there's the problem of the Prov. They're not exactly the most trustworthy gang around. MoveOntario 2020, Big Move 1.0/2.0, and now RER. Big promises, elections won. For the first grand plans many of the projects and promises fell by the wayside. It's not all that cynical to conclude that something similar will happen to the grand plan that is RER.

 

[GenerationW]

Again with the transfers. As I said above, the issue of transfer times completely ignores travel time to the initial boarding station. With more stops closer to more people, it is quite possible that an LRT would actually result in faster travel even including transfer time.

I'd be far more sympathetic to subway advocates if they provides hard numbers about such things as a) capacity needed above that of an LRT, b) average travel time to stations in the overall area served, c) cost to taxpayers of subway compared to LRT. But they don't tend to provide those kinds of detailed analysis -- instead it's all about "respect" and "deserve".

Show me numbers than demonstrate a subway is needed for capacity, will provide more access locally, and can be done at reasonable cost, and we can have a discussion.

What I'm getting out of this is that you're pleading blissful ignorance on whether an LRT would actually result in faster travel while at the same time demanding that pro-subway people show you hard numbers immediately. Heads you win, tails they lose.

 

[coffey1]

I agree that the Sheppard transfer is stupid, and that Sheppard should be converted to LRT and extended in both directions. But this has nothing to do with the SRT replacement.

The other option is to have the Sheppard transfer be a Hong Kong style cross platform timed transfer, where both trains come in at the same time and people just cross the platform to transfer. Then it doesn't even really feel like a transfer. But I doubt the TTC could pull that off.

It has everything to do with it. The only reason the RT is now a subway is because the idiotic Sheppard LRT was cancelled by Ford who wanted to build a subway on Sheppard. There was minimal support to save the second rate LRT line within Scarborough. The subway didn't pan out as Ford wanted but to save his "subway, subway, subway" slogan the opportunistic Stintz, Glenn DB & others drew up the RT replacement.

If Sheppard was a seamless transfer there wouldn't have been much opposition for commuters along that line. You also factor in that the Sheppard line was getting scaled back by sneaky Mcguinty & the SMLRT was take completely off the radar by Metrolinx. People fail to realize that many commuters who were trolled with the SMLRT would much rather bus to a subway than an LRT stub with a extra transfer now that no rapid transit will be built near them. Also the current RT route has always been questionable to many out here so the new subway route also grew some extra support.

Politicians basically trolled Scarborough with a second rate & poorly funded transit City plan. Subways seem to be the only decent form of transit Politicians understand & therefore Scarborough has little reason not to take the best overall plan tabled since both plans are flawed & few outsiders are helping fight for a effectively integrated network

The SSE would likely lead to the Sheppard subway extension in the future. And if no one is funding any better plans for Scarborough aside from the current SLRT and Sheppard LRT debacle then the majority of support will rightly fully fall with the Subway. Politicians choose to take the easy way out instead of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT.

I hope a respectful plan would prevail. But with all the self serving Politicians on both sides, the anti suburb propaganda giant of Toronto Star & Metroland media, & other regular Citizens who are also in jaded areas of Toronto also in need of transit & forced to fight against each other instead of working together Im not so sure this is possible

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

GO is already a bit of a premium service, and one of the things I fear is that RER will make it even more so. With rapid transit, we know what we're getting. With GO I feel there are too many Qs as to pricing and service we'll see, but it seems certain that the fare will be more than a standard TTC token. If Scarborough felt slighted by a series of canceled/shortened plans (the majority of which happened long before Ford), then I think they most definitely will feel slighted by a promise of rt being exchanged for a less frequent / higher fare service.

And then there's the problem of the Prov. They're not exactly the most trustworthy gang around. MoveOntario 2020, Big Move 1.0/2.0, and now RER. Big promises, elections won. For the first grand plans many of the projects and promises fell by the wayside. It's not all that cynical to conclude that something similar will happen to the grand plan that is RER.

I think GO-RER plans are here to stay, fortunately enough. I am hoping the one success of the SmartTrack plan will be to achieve fare integration at least on the Stouffville line, within Toronto.

Scarborough residents shouldn't feel slighted for receiving an incredibly modern, innovative and successful RER that would give them a rapid trip to Union station, especially when it would be obvious by then that the subway is not happening. I don't think proper transit planning should have to cave to the whims of a frustrated but uneducated electorate in any case. A Stouffville RER + Malvern spur line should be complemented by light rail transit on Sheppard East and along the route of the SMLRT too.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It has everything to do with it. The only reason the RT is now a subway is because the idiotic Sheppard LRT was cancelled by Ford who wanted to build a subway on Sheppard. There was minimal support to save the second rate LRT line within Scarborough. The subway didn't pan out as Ford wanted but to save his "subway, subway, subway" slogan the opportunistic Stintz, Glenn DB & others drew up the RT replacement.

If Sheppard was a seamless transfer there wouldn't have been much opposition for commuters along that line. You also factor in that the Sheppard line was getting scaled back by sneaky Mcguinty & the SMLRT was take completely off the radar by Metrolinx. People fail to realize that many commuters who were trolled with the SMLRT would much rather bus to a subway than an LRT stub with a extra transfer now that no rapid transit will be built near them. Also the current RT route has always been questionable to many out here so the new subway route also grew some extra support.

Politicians basically trolled Scarborough with a second rate & poorly funded transit City plan. Subways seem to be the only decent form of transit Politicians understand & therefore Scarborough has little reason not to take the best overall plan tabled since both plans are flawed & few outsiders are helping fight for a effectively integrated network

The SSE would likely lead to the Sheppard subway extension in the future. And if no one is funding any better plans for Scarborough aside from the current SLRT and Sheppard LRT debacle then the majority of support will rightly fully fall with the Subway. Politicians choose to take the easy way out instead of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT.

I hope a respectful plan would prevail.

The unnecessary forced transfer on Sheppard needs to be dealt with, it is ridiculous to switch technologies along the same parallel transit corridor, and only for 4 stops to interchange again on Yonge. The idea of a subway extension on Sheppard too is prohibitively expensive. We need to deal with the white elephant of Toronto's transit network that is the Sheppard Subway, and moving forward we need to realize that both a subway extension and the SELRT plan are non-starters.

I think a hybrid approach would be the best thing for the Sheppard corridor. Convert the subway line to LRT service, order a vehicle with specifications for the Sheppard tunnel, and run a continual LRT service all the way to Morningside. To fund the conversion to LRT, I would reduce the number of stations on the surface portion of Sheppard (making the LRT in Sheppard subway-like in stop spacing and speed, reducing dwell time) and direct the cost savings to the necessary track and platform expenses in the tunnel.