Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

Has there been an option explored of simply terminating at SCC instead of Sheppard to save ~$1bn - and if so does it look like that could end up being seen as a better priority? Even though the SELRT is basically dead, and not politically popular (even amongst our Prov) - I think a tangible/affordable option would be to have a branch of the SELRT traveling down McCowan to meet a subway terminus at the mall. With every second w/b SELRT train traveling to either Don Mills or STC.

How much development is planned for Scarb Centre between now and 2031? Does it look like there are a number of proposals? Even though it's auto-centric and never lived up to the promises of jobs and growth, it's still a downtown urban growth centre. And Scarboro and Metro governments did actually have foresight of putting in major draws like cultural and civic institutions - which is more than can be said about other suburban downtowns.

 

[Tulse]

I really don't understand the fixation on "transfer" as motivation for a subway. Sure, transferring can add a small amount of time, but that time is largely negligible, and discounts how long it would take a person to get to the initial stop on their route, where the LRT would be far better, as more people are within walking distance of its proposed stations. The LRT is also much better for local development, as opposed to serving merely as a way to get downtown.

In any case, all of this was litigated a while ago. What I'm objecting to is the notion that somehow lack of progress on any transit in Scarborough is some how the result of "politics", rather than the residents there choosing to oppose a fully-funded system that, however imperfect, would have vastly improved transit for them. If Scarborough wants a subway, then this delay is precisely what should have been expected.

 

[coffey1]

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TJ O'Pootertoot said: ↑
I want someone other than Toronto (which, I guess means Metrolinx) to take over the whole damned thing and build the RIGHT thing. Toronto has shown itself to be incapable of moving the ball forward one way or another.

Yes the good ol' "arms length" Liberal party.

How about we pay for someone to design an integrate a fully funded LRT network in Scarborough which:
1.chooses the best option with new track or new car type to remove the Sheppard subway stub for seamless integration
2.funds & build the Scarborough Malvern LRT
3.review the current design on the SLRT with the impact of SmartTrack. Although if 1&2 are implemented the SLRT would see stronger support out here.

@Tulse.
You don't understand why Scarborough doesn't want a scrappy LRT network with of unfair transfers going in the same direction? Seriously?

There's a COST to doing things right. It has nothing to do with Subway vs. LRT. If the LRT doesn't provide enough benefit for the MAJORITY it wont get support. Scarborough shouldn't be forced to accept a "plan" because it CHEAPER, & will be built QUICKER. The plan is joke of equitable transit building. Id rather see nothing than have some outside Politician and it's owned propaganda media newspaper megaphone use narratives and spin to convince the nice outside voters who has no real clue other than to say "7 stops are better" & "2 billion more". It's as useless & dumb as "subways, subways, subways!"

Wake up & work together. Scarborough deserves a better plan

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ha, so the Scarborough subway, which was championed by politicians as a boon to development, is being challenged by developers.

No, the development fees for the funding of the line is being challenged. And on questionable reasoning at that. This would be a precedent setting ruling for the OMB, BILD will need a damn good reason behind that and "but ridership" hardly qualifies as a reason for the OMB to strike down a development fee.


Worst case scenario for the city, the developer wins its argument, and they gotta find 150 million from elsewhere. This ruling would not be on the subway itself.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So you have to wonder if this will delay implementation of the Scarborough subway. I'm not a fan of it but I think further delaying transit improvements and needing to keep the RT limping along is probably the worst aspect of this.

Transit City was first proposed eight years ago, along with replacing the RT with an LRT. There's still nothing to show for it, not even shovels in the ground for an LRT or a subway. Sad, just sad sad sad how politics has royally screwed Scarborough residents.

Won't delay it. The city can continue to collect those fees until the ruling comes down from the OMB on the matter, and even then if they loose they simply have to find another source of funding for part of the project. They can more than likely rely on other funding mechanisms in place to bridge the gap until the new source is found.

 

[Tulse]

.
You don't understand why Scarborough doesn't want a scrappy LRT network with of unfair transfers going in the same direction? Seriously?

Again with the transfers. As I said above, the issue of transfer times completely ignores travel time to the initial boarding station. With more stops closer to more people, it is quite possible that an LRT would actually result in faster travel even including transfer time.

I'd be far more sympathetic to subway advocates if they provides hard numbers about such things as a) capacity needed above that of an LRT, b) average travel time to stations in the overall area served, c) cost to taxpayers of subway compared to LRT. But they don't tend to provide those kinds of detailed analysis -- instead it's all about "respect" and "deserve".

Show me numbers than demonstrate a subway is needed for capacity, will provide more access locally, and can be done at reasonable cost, and we can have a discussion.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Metrolinx helped allow this shit to happen by asking council to "reaffirm their commitment" to the LRT, after they voted for a subway during a council debate that was supposed to be about discussing revenue tools for transit. That vote should have been ignored.

Oh, yeah - totally fair point. In my imagination Metrolinx actually does what it's supposed to, planning regional transit with municipal input but not kowtowing to every dumb decision they make.

No, the development fees for the funding of the line is being challenged. And on questionable reasoning at that. This would be a precedent setting ruling for the OMB, BILD will need a damn good reason behind that and "but ridership" hardly qualifies as a reason for the OMB to strike down a development fee.

Worst case scenario for the city, the developer wins its argument, and they gotta find 150 million from elsewhere. This ruling would not be on the subway itself.

Good succinct summary. The only caveat I'd add is that IF BILD somehow wins, the OMB will have officially ruled the ridership numbers are BS. And while Toronto Council has so far proven it's immune to objective data, that would be a very bad blow in terms of optics. Council will need to find another $150M from who knows where, and residents will be saying they sure aren't going to pay more for something that the province's highest planning body has ruled is premised on made-up numbers.

There's a lot of IFs there and maybe it's all PR stunt but I assume BILD and its lawyers think they have a chance at actually achieving this victory, even if it's just through a negotiated revision of numbers.

 

[Cobra]

There's no point debating ridership, travel time etc...
Politically, that ship has sailed. The province won't reopen that issue nor will the city. That subway will get build.

As for the developers challenging the fees...that would create a HUGE precedent which won't happen anytime soon. They are fighting this project for the wrong reasons and no way will there be a decision giving them that much power over municipalities. That case will get thrown away decisively. Imagine developer starting to challenge anything that municipalities plans to build/upgrade to avoid higher fees...Where would it stop? Their ridership argument is a none issue in this case.

They know that rapid transit is already there/coming to that area. They just want the cheapest project hoping their fees will go down and they don't care about citizens of Scarborough and transit riders.

This is just greed...nothing more, nothing less...They must be thinking this

 

[WislaHD]

Just like on Sheppard corridor, both the subway and LRT plans for replacing the SRT are non-starters.

If we actually cared about creating a well-designed transit plan that serves people in Scarborough, we would need to push a hybrid plan. Either interlining the Scarborough LRT with the Crosstown and eliminating the transfer, or by scrapping both LRT and Subway plans and pursuing a spur line of SmartTrack/GO-RER.

I prefer the latter. People often forget that Scarborough Town Centre is as far away from Downtown Toronto as Square One is in Mississauga. Subway and LRT both don't serve those long distance commutes well. Frequent service commuter rail is needed instead.

 

[coffey1]

Again with the transfers. As I said above, the issue of transfer times completely ignores travel time to the initial boarding station. With more stops closer to more people, it is quite possible that an LRT would actually result in faster travel even including transfer time.

I'd be far more sympathetic to subway advocates if they provides hard numbers about such things as a) capacity needed above that of an LRT, b) average travel time to stations in the overall area served, c) cost to taxpayers of subway compared to LRT. But they don't tend to provide those kinds of detailed analysis -- instead it's all about "respect" and "deserve".

Show me numbers than demonstrate a subway is needed for capacity, will provide more access locally, and can be done at reasonable cost, and we can have a discussion.

Scarborough commuters have been treated like mice in a shoe-box for decades. Whatever data gets used against building a decent or fairly integrated plan for the future of Scarborough is heavily flawed. Again please quit the subway vs LRT debate. Show me a fully funded, fairly integrated LRT plan & ill have an quality discussion.

Certainly disrespectful for a elderly Scarborough commuter to take a bus to an LRT to transfer again to a short stubway in the RICH area of North York..... You can give me all the numbers in the world & it wont make up for this disrespectful political inequality


Since you may have all the facts please feel free to provide:

The ridership in Scarborough subway proposal vs the ridership in most of all the stops on the Yonge, Bloor, Sheppard lines when they were built. Wont even bother with the Richmond hill & Vaughan hush, hush jobs. Toronto STAR did you not hear about those? Awfully quiet on that front for some reason?

Even a ridership comparison of all the stops to the "projected" Scarborough extension vs. the ridership of current stations so we can determine which stops to shut down if this subway is hi-jacked for a patchy LRT plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

Just like on Sheppard corridor, both the subway and LRT plans for replacing the SRT are non-starters.

If we actually cared about creating a well-designed transit plan that serves people in Scarborough, we would need to push a hybrid plan. Either interlining the Scarborough LRT with the Crosstown and eliminating the transfer, or by scrapping both LRT and Subway plans and pursuing a spur line of SmartTrack/GO-RER.

I prefer the latter. People often forget that Scarborough Town Centre is as far away from Downtown Toronto as Square One is in Mississauga. Subway and LRT both don't serve those long distance commutes well. Frequent service commuter rail is needed instead.

Honestly, I think the best plan would be to change the Sheppard subway to LRT and to infill some new stations. Then have branches in Scarborough: 1) McCowan branch to STC 2) Progress branch to Malvern TC 3) Sheppard East branch to the zoo.

And when it comes to replacing the RT, the twist here is SmartTrack or GO RER or whatever becomes of that. Really, if there's more work there (and fare integration for GO RER), the demand for a subway will ameliorate. The reason a lot of people want that subway extension is because they perceive the ride to be faster and they hate that transfer at the end of the subway when the vast majority are just going to Lawrence or Scarborough Centre on the SRT. Given a substantially better option than the subway, and LRT to GO is a better option, most would actually opt for that.

 

[coffey1]

Honestly, I think the best plan would be to change the Sheppard subway to LRT and to infill some new stations. Then have branches in Scarborough: 1) McCowan branch to STC 2) Progress branch to Malvern TC 3) Sheppard East branch to the zoo.

And when it comes to replacing the RT, the twist here is SmartTrack or GO RER or whatever becomes of that. Really, if there's more work there (and fare integration for GO RER), the demand for a subway will ameliorate. The reason a lot of people want that subway extension is because they perceive the ride to be faster and they hate that transfer at the end of the subway when the vast majority are just going to Lawrence or Scarborough Centre on the SRT. Given a substantially better option than the subway, and LRT to GO is a better option, most would actually opt for that.

Priorities:

- Convert Sheppard to LRT technology whether it means laying down new tracks or purchasing custom vehicles
- Fund the LRT loop from Sheppard down Morningside to Kennedy/Eglinton....
- Finding a cheaper solution for the RT replacement instead of subway once the two other priories have been approved.

-If Sheppard is not converted this is going to be an exhausting fight for a subway extension which could easily have been & can be avoided. The current Sheppard LRT plan is a joke that has only small pockets of support.
-The SMLRT does more for priority neighborhoods & would serve some of the most neglected areas in the City. Also would be a huge benefit to UTSC/Centennial students
-If there's not a respectful plan for Scarborough outsiders can fully expect nothing short of subway support out here for both RT and Sheppard.

It's truly not rocket science to make this a useful, integrated & attractive network.

One line will not fix everything, the Subways vs. LRT debate is for idiots on both sides as both current plans are severely flawed. Lets pay to fix the mistakes of the past otherwise dont expect any sane reasoning to prevail. Scarborough commuters should not have to pay for previous Political gains, short sighted designs, & provincial funding gamesmanship

 

[crs1026]

The good news is, the radio stations are starting to sing Christmas Carols again.

So anyone wanting a Scarboro Subway can sing along....." I want a Scarboro Subway for Christmas, Only a Scarboro Subway will do...."

LRT proponents can adapt the words as well.

I fail to understand why Scarberians would want a subway if they don't intend to ride it. So far, the ridership numbers haven't been there. If they want to feel the love, why not just send them each their share of the added cost of a subway in a cheque?

I live in Etobicoke, which isn't exactly criss-crossed with subways....and I don't feel we got stiffed out here. What am I missing?

- Paul

 

[coffey1]

The good news is, the radio stations are starting to sing Christmas Carols again.

So anyone wanting a Scarboro Subway can sing along....." I want a Scarboro Subway for Christmas, Only a Scarboro Subway will do...."

LRT proponents can adapt the words as well.

I fail to understand why Scarberians would want a subway if they don't intend to ride it. So far, the ridership numbers haven't been there. If they want to feel the love, why not just send them each their share of the added cost of a subway in a cheque?

I live in Etobicoke, which isn't exactly criss-crossed with subways....and I don't feel we got stiffed out here. What am I missing?

- Paul

Maybe this will help you understand the frustration. What if the City proposed this for Etobicoke:

1. The Finch West LRT gets broken up and built into 1/3 subway, & 2/3 LRT to serve a Politically strong select few (Similar to Sheppard)

2. Having a proposed LRT extension run from say Sherway Gardens or Etobicoke civic center to Kipling subway & finding some industrial lands to ruin it thru (RT)

3. Having no streetcar or LRT along your Lakeshore (Kingston Rd. Scarborough)

Why would people not use the subway? There are many reason for the RT not being used & the subway alleviates some of the issues in terms of connectivity, reliability, route, attractiveness. Again i think there is much better options than the subway. But if I am forced to choose between the 2 current absurd plans. It's clearly subway over the SLRT.

Bah Humbug!

 

[sixrings]

I have no problem converting Sheppard subway to lrt but the srt lrt to subway concept Is just a waste of money to get votes. Subways do have to end somewhere. I am speaking as a former Scarborough resident