Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

But there is a contingent at City Hall that wants the Sheppard East subway so watch out in 2015. Led by Norm Kelly, so it's legit.

Such calls were made before, and may continue. They have no chance to succeed, if Scarborough subway is confirmed.

First of all, it would be obviously unfair to give Scarborough two subway extensions at once, ahead of other parts of the city. The BD extension won on a rather thin margin. The second extension cannot win, as councilors from other parts of the city will have a hard time explaining their voters why the transit investments have got so Scarborough-centric. They will not vote for any kind of surtax to enable the second extension.

Secondly, a case can be made that keeping one of two LRT lines on the table allows to improve service east of McCowan. If both were replaced with subways, then both those subways would terminate at STC, and residents living east of McCowan would see no improvement at all.

 

[Rainforest]

Okay? In all likelihood, this practical limit will be eliminated long before the Line 2 extension is anywhere close to being operational.

Not a slightest chance. A more frequent RER service requires a downtown rail tunnel.

Both the Line 2 extension and the downtown rail tunnel require digging and that takes time. Tunneling through downtown is certainly more complex due to the numerous utility lines and the PATH walkways, that alone should cause it to take 1-2 years longer than Line 2.

Furthermore, Line 2 has funding and the provisional route.

The downtown rail tunnel has no funding, no preferred route, and both Metrolinx and the municipal transit authorities remain very vague about the timing of such project.

Altogether, if the really frequent RER materializes "only" 10 years after the Line 2 extension opens, we are lucky.

 

[salsa]

Such calls were made before, and may continue. They have no chance to succeed, if Scarborough subway is confirmed.

First of all, it would be obviously unfair to give Scarborough two subway extensions at once, ahead of other parts of the city. The BD extension won on a rather thin margin. The second extension cannot win, as councilors from other parts of the city will have a hard time explaining their voters why the transit investments have got so Scarborough-centric. They will not vote for any kind of surtax to enable the second extension.

Secondly, a case can be made that keeping one of two LRT lines on the table allows to improve service east of McCowan. If both were replaced with subways, then both those subways would terminate at STC, and residents living east of McCowan would see no improvement at all.

I'm more concerned that the Sheppard LRT will be canceled due to political opposition than the possibility of a subway being built there instead. Some Scarborough councillors and MPs would rather get nothing and wait 100 years for a subway to materialize, if ever.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm more concerned that the Sheppard LRT will be canceled due to political opposition than the possibility of a subway being built there instead. Some Scarborough councillors and MPs would rather get nothing and wait 100 years for a subway to materialize, if ever.

Is anyone else willing to just let it happen? The current Sheppard bus can handle demands well. If they don't want the investment then there are many many parts of the city who would.

We can cancel the Sheppard East LRT and fully fund the Waterfront West LRT. Much better use of our money IMO.

(Obviously any cancellation of SELRT would just go towards SmartTrack, unfortunately)

 

[smallspy]

Truthfully elevated in scarborough would save some money, ....

Please, explain to us....how can it save money? Especially when you start to talk about such money-costing features such as heated stations in the same paragraph.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BurlOak]

Please, explain to us....how can it save money? Especially when you start to talk about such money-costing features such as heated stations in the same paragraph.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Probably that it saves money compared to the B-D subway extension.

I think most believe that the current plan is B-D subway - so that is considered the base case. Service and cost must be compared to this base case.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Such calls were made before, and may continue. They have no chance to succeed, if Scarborough subway is confirmed.

First of all, it would be obviously unfair to give Scarborough two subway extensions at once, ahead of other parts of the city. The BD extension won on a rather thin margin. The second extension cannot win, as councilors from other parts of the city will have a hard time explaining their voters why the transit investments have got so Scarborough-centric. They will not vote for any kind of surtax to enable the second extension.

Secondly, a case can be made that keeping one of two LRT lines on the table allows to improve service east of McCowan. If both were replaced with subways, then both those subways would terminate at STC, and residents living east of McCowan would see no improvement at all.

BS! Tory almost rolled over on the SELRT during the election and Finch as well.

As for optics, here's the thing. Scarborough getting two subways at one would normally be unfair, but this is Toronto. North York has 2 subways, or 3 if you could Spadina and Yonge as separate. (I don't personally) and Etobicoke has one plus the the Eglinton West extension coming up. Scarborough getting two subways would keep them quiet for years and ensure their cooperation. For resident east of McCowan, you are correct but you can only do so much. A lot of them also support both subways. You can't turn back the clock once you set a bad precedent.

Then again, all we can hope is that this never gets any traction during the next council meeting.

Please, explain to us....how can it save money? Especially when you start to talk about such money-costing features such as heated stations in the same paragraph.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Probably that it saves money compared to the B-D subway extension.

I think most believe that the current plan is B-D subway - so that is considered the base case. Service and cost must be compared to this base case.

Yes, in relation to the subway extension. I'm sure you don't think it's good to spend 4 billion dollars to fix a transfer.

 

[WislaHD]

You guys will find this an especially delicious quote:

In order to “maintain an uninterrupted program of subway constructionâ€, Metro Chairman Frederick Gardiner discovered that it was politically easier to extend the established subway lines into the suburbs than it was to get Metro Council to agree over the construction of a new line {On Queen}. Extending the established lines was cheaper than building from scratch, and it fulfilled some of the suburban municipalities’ demands for improved transit service. For this reason, approval was granted in the early 1960s to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway west to Islington in Etobicoke and east to Warden in Scarborough.

- http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5105.shtml

 

[Dan416]

If only we had gotten an uninterrupted program of subway construction. Unfortunately that vision is lacking these days.

 

[ShonTron]

A plug for my new blog/website: I show what the rail transit maps in Scarborough would look like under different schemes:

Does Scarborough need a subway extension? (No, it doesn’t.)

And here's what it would look like if Transit City was fully implemented, along with GO electrification:

 

[smallspy]

Yes, in relation to the subway extension. I'm sure you don't think it's good to spend 4 billion dollars to fix a transfer.

I will agree in that the almost $4bil projected cost of the subway would be far, far better spent on an almost infinite number of better things, yes.

However to call the elevating of the eastern end of the Eglinton-Crosstown a savings in comparison to any other option or in any other context is false. Only in Metrolinx's most optimistic projections would it be needed by 2030, and more realistically it won't be needed at all until every single person on this forum has been buried (or cremated, however you prefer).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I will agree in that the almost $4bil projected cost of the subway would be far, far better spent on an almost infinite number of better things, yes.

However to call the elevating of the eastern end of the Eglinton-Crosstown a savings in comparison to any other option or in any other context is false. Only in Metrolinx's most optimistic projections would it be needed by 2030, and more realistically it won't be needed at all until every single person on this forum has been buried (or cremated, however you prefer).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Fair enough. I have no issue with it running in the street. Many Scarborough residents do though. Eglinton East is not even a residential area either.

 

[WislaHD]

Scarborough residents are against it because "it takes up space on the road" and "removes lanes".

Those claims are very exaggerated at best and outright false at worse. IIRC multiple studies have shown that decreasing number of lanes on a road does not correlate with increased congestion. Heck if anything, their commutes on Eglinton will improve substantially by having the LRT eliminate all buses from the road. (Buses are the source of congestion on high frequency routes)

However, Scarberians have had their local councillors tell them that the sky will fall if LRTs are built and they've just spent the past two years watching Rob Ford spout his idiotic rhetoric on CP2Ford with no fact checking done by the news media. Only way Scarberians will learn that LRTs are a very practical and efficient form of transit will be when the Eglinton Crosstown opens and they can see for themselves. Soon after I am sure Scarborough will be clamoring for an eastern extension to Kingston Road.

It is a shame that the "build nothing" option isn't an option in Scarborough as it is on Sheppard. The current SRT is already past its lifespan and needs to be replaced forcing us to do something, meaning a boondoggle subway extension. Otherwise I would've been find with building nothing, reallocating the funds elsewhere, and re-prioritizing the Scarborough LRT after the Crosstown opens and the anti-LRT stigma dies.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You guys will find this an especially delicious quote:



- http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5105.shtml

Cool info!

Scarborough residents are against it because "it takes up space on the road" and "removes lanes".

Those claims are very exaggerated at best and outright false at worse. IIRC multiple studies have shown that decreasing number of lanes on a road does not correlate with increased congestion. Heck if anything, their commutes on Eglinton will improve substantially by having the LRT eliminate all buses from the road. (Buses are the source of congestion on high frequency routes)

However, Scarberians have had their local councillors tell them that the sky will fall if LRTs are built and they've just spent the past two years watching Rob Ford spout his idiotic rhetoric on CP2Ford with no fact checking done by the news media. Only way Scarberians will learn that LRTs are a very practical and efficient form of transit will be when the Eglinton Crosstown opens and they can see for themselves. Soon after I am sure Scarborough will be clamoring for an eastern extension to Kingston Road.

It is a shame that the "build nothing" option isn't an option in Scarborough as it is on Sheppard. The current SRT is already past its lifespan and needs to be replaced forcing us to do something, meaning a boondoggle subway extension. Otherwise I would've been find with building nothing, reallocating the funds elsewhere, and re-prioritizing the Scarborough LRT after the Crosstown opens and the anti-LRT stigma dies.

Exactly. And I can't wait for the LRT's to go out east. I wish we built more north south transit though. Really.

 

[salsa]

A plug for my new blog/website: I show what the rail transit maps in Scarborough would look like under different schemes:

Does Scarborough need a subway extension? (No, it doesn’t.)

Add in a crosstown GO line from Malvern to Mississauga in the long term, and whatever weak justification there once was for this subway will be thoroughly demolished.