Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

BS! Tory almost rolled over on the SELRT during the election and Finch as well.

???

Tory just avoided any discussion on these two projects during his campaign. Basically, he indicated "do whatever you want there, I don't care either way". How can he roll over when in fact he does not care. Or, who can make him roll over. Public support for these projects is rather weak, public opposition to them is even weaker (limited to a few councilors with little influence).

As for optics, here's the thing. Scarborough getting two subways at one would normally be unfair, but this is Toronto. North York has 2 subways, or 3 if you could Spadina and Yonge as separate. (I don't personally) and Etobicoke has one plus the the Eglinton West extension coming up. Scarborough getting two subways would keep them quiet for years and ensure their cooperation. For resident east of McCowan, you are correct but you can only do so much. A lot of them also support both subways. You can't turn back the clock once you set a bad precedent.

I just don't see a slightest chance that such proposal (municipal funding for 2 Scarborough subways at once) will win the majority support at the Council.

 

[Palma]

???

Tory just avoided any discussion on these two projects during his campaign. Basically, he indicated "do whatever you want there, I don't care either way". How can he roll over when in fact he does not care. Or, who can make him roll over. Public support for these projects is rather weak, public opposition to them is even weaker (limited to a few councilors with little influence).



I just don't see a slightest chance that such proposal (municipal funding for 2 Scarborough subways at once) will win the majority support at the Council.

That map that shows that SmartTrack would run just west of the scarborough extension was a real eye opener. Though I disapproved of the scarborough subway before, now that I saw the map and where SmartTrack would run, it makes no sense to have 2 subways out there. Cancel the Scarborough extension and that money should go towards SmartTrack. Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker in his speech when council was debating approving funds for the study on SmartTrack, made it clear there will be 7 stops running through Scarborough (as if that was the sole reason why funding the study should go forward). It makes no sense for the scarborough extension to also go ahead (other than the extesion runs through Daeremaeker's ward and he can continue to say that he is fighting for a subway in that ward), vs SmartTrack that runs through Councillor Thompson's wards

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If only we had gotten an uninterrupted program of subway construction. Unfortunately that vision is lacking these days.

We will never, ever again have an uninterrupted program of subway construction in Toronto. Subways are now too inefficient and too expensive to be built in significant amounts. This isn't the 1970s, where you could build subways from Eglinton to Finch for a few hundred million dollars.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I will agree in that the almost $4bil projected cost of the subway would be far, far better spent on an almost infinite number of better things, yes.

However to call the elevating of the eastern end of the Eglinton-Crosstown a savings in comparison to any other option or in any other context is false. Only in Metrolinx's most optimistic projections would it be needed by 2030, and more realistically it won't be needed at all until every single person on this forum has been buried (or cremated, however you prefer).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Isn't it true that ECLRT would need to be fully grade separated if it were joined with the SRT? I believe this is the situation people are talking about when discussing the elevation of ECLRT.

 

[quicksilver]

That map that shows that SmartTrack would run just west of the scarborough extension was a real eye opener. Though I disapproved of the scarborough subway before, now that I saw the map and where SmartTrack would run, it makes no sense to have 2 subways out there.

This is why it makes sense to stop SmartTrack at Kennedy in the east. Build the Bloor/Danforth extension to McCowan (as subway, surface or elevated; whatever makes sense). Build SmartTrack west of Kennedy. This was one of those issues with Tory. Why is the Toronto mayor focused on building a train into York Region? Let's get the Bloor/Danforth extension done first and then worry about extensions even further out into the suburbs.

 

[WislaHD]

This is why it makes sense to stop SmartTrack at Kennedy in the east. Build the Bloor/Danforth extension to McCowan (as subway, surface or elevated; whatever makes sense). Build SmartTrack west of Kennedy. This was one of those issues with Tory. Why is the Toronto mayor focused on building a train into York Region? Let's get the Bloor/Danforth extension done first and then worry about extensions even further out into the suburbs.

It isn't so black and white like that. Many TTC riders are from York region and providing alternative routes for them means reducing congestion on the Yonge line for instance, a benefit to Toronto. What would you do to all the people in northern Scarborough that SmartTrack is designed to serve?

Besides, what is the harm when the infrastructure (GO) is already there and the province (probably) is handling and funding the necessary upgrades on that portion of SmartTrack?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

???

Tory just avoided any discussion on these two projects during his campaign. Basically, he indicated "do whatever you want there, I don't care either way". How can he roll over when in fact he does not care. Or, who can make him roll over. Public support for these projects is rather weak, public opposition to them is even weaker (limited to a few councilors with little influence).

Publice support for both LRTs is neutral. He didn't put them on the map first either.

I just don't see a slightest chance that such proposal (municipal funding for 2 Scarborough subways at once) will win the majority support at the Council.

Me neither. But this is Toronto.

 

[quicksilver]

It isn't so black and white like that. Many TTC riders are from York region and providing alternative routes for them means reducing congestion on the Yonge line for instance, a benefit to Toronto. What would you do to all the people in northern Scarborough that SmartTrack is designed to serve?

Besides, what is the harm when the infrastructure (GO) is already there and the province (probably) is handling and funding the necessary upgrades on that portion of SmartTrack?

Indeed it is not black and white. You say the infrastructure is already there but is it? The GO line from Kennedy north is a single track. The train either goes north or it goes south, not both. When the SELRT was under construction, there was an underpass built for Sheppard (with significant disruption for people in the area). There are no underpasses at either Finch or Steeles. If the SmartTrack trains are going to be passing, in both directions, every fifteen minutes, major infrastructure upgrades are going to be necessary.

In some places along this route GO is going through residential areas. In the southern section, you can see this if you ride the SRT. But it's also the case further north. Right now one train goes by in one direction every so often. Again, if trains are going by in both directions every fifteen minutes (subway frequency, haha!), major infrastructure is going to be required to ameliorate the noise. I don't know if this is trenching, tunnelling, walls, or buying people out.

The people in northern Scarborough will be served by both the SELRT, if it gets built, and the proposed Bloor/Danforth "subway" (underground is not a necessity everywhere) extension to Sheppard/McCowan. Ideally the extension would not stop at Sheppard but continue north to Finch.

 

[quicksilver]

I should point out this underpass/overpass infrastructure requirement for SmartTrack is not just at Finch and Steeles, but also

south of Steeles

Havendale Rd
Huntingwood Dr
McNicoll Ave
Passmore Ave

north of Steeles

Kennedy Rd
Denison St.

 

[Rainforest]

It might be sensible to run SmartTrack trains less often in the north than in the south.

In Phase 1, we might see every 15 min Union to Sheppard or to Steeles, and every 30 min in Markham.

When they build the downtown rail tunnel, we might see every 5 min Union to Sheppard and every 10 min north of Sheppard.

 

[smallspy]

Isn't it true that ECLRT would need to be fully grade separated if it were joined with the SRT? I believe this is the situation people are talking about when discussing the elevation of ECLRT.

I don't know. The frequencies of both services were so different that no matter what not every single train would have continued south/west of Kennedy regardless of how the line was built. If they're only running, say, every third train on the EC from the SRT, than no, grade separation wouldn't be needed.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't know. The frequencies of both services were so different that no matter what not every single train would have continued south/west of Kennedy regardless of how the line was built. If they're only running, say, every third train on the EC from the SRT, than no, grade separation wouldn't be needed.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

It seems like a ridiculous way to run a transit system. "We will piss off 67% of our riders because that is the only way the plan will work."
I would say choose a different plan.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Indeed it is not black and white. You say the infrastructure is already there but is it? The GO line from Kennedy north is a single track. The train either goes north or it goes south, not both. When the SELRT was under construction, there was an underpass built for Sheppard (with significant disruption for people in the area). There are no underpasses at either Finch or Steeles. If the SmartTrack trains are going to be passing, in both directions, every fifteen minutes, major infrastructure upgrades are going to be necessary.

In some places along this route GO is going through residential areas. In the southern section, you can see this if you ride the SRT. But it's also the case further north. Right now one train goes by in one direction every so often. Again, if trains are going by in both directions every fifteen minutes (subway frequency, haha!), major infrastructure is going to be required to ameliorate the noise. I don't know if this is trenching, tunnelling, walls, or buying people out.

The people in northern Scarborough will be served by both the SELRT, if it gets built, and the proposed Bloor/Danforth "subway" (underground is not a necessity everywhere) extension to Sheppard/McCowan. Ideally the extension would not stop at Sheppard but continue north to Finch.

I should point out this underpass/overpass infrastructure requirement for SmartTrack is not just at Finch and Steeles, but also

south of Steeles

Havendale Rd
Huntingwood Dr
McNicoll Ave
Passmore Ave

north of Steeles

Kennedy Rd
Denison St.

I like the thinking on this. An above ground subway would be a great compromise.

 

[Hopkins123]

That map that shows that SmartTrack would run just west of the scarborough extension was a real eye opener. Though I disapproved of the scarborough subway before, now that I saw the map and where SmartTrack would run, it makes no sense to have 2 subways out there. Cancel the Scarborough extension and that money should go towards SmartTrack. Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker in his speech when council was debating approving funds for the study on SmartTrack, made it clear there will be 7 stops running through Scarborough (as if that was the sole reason why funding the study should go forward). It makes no sense for the scarborough extension to also go ahead (other than the extesion runs through Daeremaeker's ward and he can continue to say that he is fighting for a subway in that ward), vs SmartTrack that runs through Councillor Thompson's wards

SmartTrack is not a subway, won't run at subwaylike frequencies, doesn't connect to Scarborough Centre and doesn't have the built-in demand that the Bloor-Danforth has already.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Oh gosh, here we go again.

SmartTrack (GO RER) will have frequencies of 15 minutes or more frequent. That means that at 1 AM on Sunday morning, you may have to wait 15 minutes for your train. Other than that, the next train isn't too far away.