Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

By the way, considering that the TTC expects that 15 years from now this extension will move only 9,500 pphpd, and that the TTC's transit technology table (Page 12) only recommends subway construction after 10,000 pphpd, the loss of even 1,500 riders is very significant. That ridership is almost as low as Sheppard. If RER has any greater impact, usage on this extension will almost certainly be less than the Sheppard Subway.

"Recommends" does not mean a subway cannot be built for 8,000 pphpd.

Anyway, this number is being twisted around, both ways. When TTC wanted to put to rest the idea of Sheppard extension, they raised the threshold to 15,000. When they build the Vaughan extension, the fact that it won't have 15,000, 10,000, or even 8,000, does not seem to matter.

 

[salsa]

By the way, considering that the TTC expects that 15 years from now this extension will move only 9,500 pphpd, and that the TTC's transit technology table (Page 12) only recommends subway construction after 10,000 pphpd, the loss of even 1,500 riders is very significant. That ridership is almost as low as Sheppard. If RER has any greater impact, usage on this extension will almost certainly be less than the Sheppard Subway.

If I'm not mistaken, the ridership number they concocted didn't even consider the impact of fare integration or the parallel Stouffville line. It basically relies on Markamites parking their cars at STC and taking the subway downtown, when they should be using GO. I hope Metrolinx will conduct a proper network analysis during the two year EA process, so that we can have an informed discussion within the confines of reality. Just kidding, Scarborough councillors don't care about facts.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If you don't like the conclusion, it does not make my argument absurd.

Old part of the subway network has much closer stop spacing. I am not even talking about downtown (south of Bloor). Look at Yonge between Bloor and Eglinton, it is 800 m average. BD subway between Jane and Main follows a 700 - 800 m spacing pattern. Many of those stations have lower usage than the proposed Eglinton & Danforth station.

Even the outer sections you mentioned, have gaps of 2 km or less. Vaughan extension 6 stations (7 spaces) per 8.5 km length, the average is about 1,200 m, which means walking distance is 600 m or less in most cases.

Without the Eglinton & Danforth station, the gap between Kennedy and Lawrence will be about 3.5 km; this is comparable only to the Vic Park - Warden and Warden - Kennedy gaps, but beats even those two.

There is no good reason not to add that station.

Your opinion is not common, and the majority of current users will prefer the subway project to go ahead.

Stouffville RER (SmartTrack) will run once in 15 min according to John Tory, if he has his way (even that frequency requires some nontrivial enhancements). Lakeshore East, probably can reach same level. Better service will require a downtown tunnel.

A trains every 15 min means 4 trains per hour. Not sure about the size of each train. Single-level GO trains can carry 2,000 passengers. But if they use smaller trains that are easier to handle, it could be just 1,000 or 1,500 per train. TTC's subway trains are about 1,000 per train.

So, each line (Stouffville and Lakeshore) will likely have top capacity of 4,000 to 6,000 per hour. Obviously, not all of that capacity will compete with Scarborough subway extension. Some will be used by Markham, some by Durham region cities, some by the residents of western and southern Scarborough that would never be on the Kennedy - STC subway in any case. Some will be taken by residents of eastern Toronto.

At the end, it is possible that the Stouffville line will divert no more than 1,000 to 1,500 riders per hour off the Scarborough subway. Lakeshore East, probably even less since it runs further from the catchment area.

How is your argument not absurd. You appear to claim that subway stations not in walking distance of each other is unacceptable. My rebuttal was that we frequently build stations far beyond walking distance, meaning that it is fully acceptable.



Yeah, those stations also didn't cost $150 Million to $200 Million to build. Back then those stations were stupid cheap. Nowadays they're so expensive that we have to be really conservative about where we place them.



Yeah, except for the $150 Million cost and the fact that there are two other rapid transit stations on Eglinton in the immediate area.

By the way, considering that the TTC expects that 15 years from now this extension will move only 9,500 pphpd, and that the TTC's transit technology table (Page 12) only recommends subway construction after 10,000 pphpd, the loss of even 1,500 riders is very significant. That ridership is almost as low as Sheppard. If RER has any greater impact, usage on this extension will almost certainly be less than the Sheppard Subway.

The majority of the city opposed this to subway. Let's get that straight right out of the gate. TheTigerMaster is in line with everyone in North York, Etobicoke, York, East York and the Old City. Secondly, if we are going to do this crap, like Wisla said, let's do it right. That means the Danforth-Eglinton Station better be built. And as a result, this is now a 5 billion dollar boondoggle. For this money, we could build the phase 2 of the Crosstown, finish phase 2 of Finch and Sheppard, and build the Don Mills and Jane LRT's.

 

[salsa]

That station is not a huge extra cost, compared to the total cost of the project.

A little misleading. The city's contribution to this subway is $1 billion. All cost overruns will be billed to the city. If the extra station turns out to be $200M, that's a 20% increase on our part of the budged that will be borne entirely by Toronto taxpayers (not Harper or Queens Park). Not exactly a minor expense if you look at it from our perspective.

 

[Dan416]

I honestly can't understand why one of the most important subway extensions in the city is debated so much. No wonder nothing gets built in this city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"Every 5 minutes" is your number, not mine. Not sure where you got it, and how you hope to squeeze so many trains through the existing Union rail corridor.

5 min on each line means both combined would run on a 2.5 min frequency. And, you need some room for VIA trains coming from the east.

As I said, 15 min on each line is the practical limit with the existing arrangement. Higher frequency is possible (with a downtown rail tunnel and a number of other improvements), but will not happen any time soon.

Like I said, the RER proposal is for at least 15 minutes on every line. If you want to use 10 minutes or 7 minutes or 90 seconds in your calculation, be my guest. But let's not pretend that, as proposed, the upper limit is 15 minute frequencies. It will be more frequent than that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If I'm not mistaken, the ridership number they concocted didn't even consider the impact of fare integration or the parallel Stouffville line. It basically relies on Markamites parking their cars at STC and taking the subway downtown, when they should be using GO. I hope Metrolinx will conduct a proper network analysis during the two year EA process, so that we can have an informed discussion within the confines of reality. Just kidding, Scarborough councillors don't care about facts.

You're absolutely right.


And no, Metrolinx won't do a proper analysis. That would just expose how wasteful this project is. They'll just keep pretending that RER isn't there and that thousands of Markham residents will use this thing. And when this thing opens and potentially ends up with lower ridership than Sheppard, we'll (Toronto) be the ones stuck subsidizing it.

 

[Hopkins123]

I honestly can't understand why one of the most important subway extensions in the city is debated so much. No wonder nothing gets built in this city.

It's why we can't have nice things. Some people are too obsessed with saving pennies and completely miss the big picture. If the Brimley Station isn't included from conception, they'll have to add it in in the future just like they did with North York Centre Stn. It's too important an intersection to skip. So $100 million now, or risk shutting down an active line in the future to build it then, your pick.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The majority of the city opposed this to subway. Let's get that straight right out of the gate. TheTigerMaster is in line with everyone in North York, Etobicoke, York, East York and the Old City. Secondly, if we are going to do this crap, like Wisla said, let's do it right. That means the Danforth-Eglinton Station better be built. And as a result, this is now a 5 billion dollar boondoggle. For this money, we could build the phase 2 of the Crosstown, finish phase 2 of Finch and Sheppard, and build the Don Mills and Jane LRT's.

Heck, even the majority of Scarbough resiedents are opposed to this once they are made aware of the cost. It appears as if the support of this project is riding on the backs of people who know nothing about it, and on those who fetishize about underground electric railways.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's why we can't have nice things. Some people are too obsessed with saving pennies and completely miss the big picture. If the Brimley Station isn't included from conception, they'll have to add it in in the future just like they did with North York Centre Stn. It's too important an intersection to skip. So $100 million now, or risk shutting down an active line in the future to build it then, your pick.

Pennies? Since when is $3.5 Billion considered 'pennies?!?! Since when is $200 Million considered pennies?? This isn't a small amount of money we're dealing with.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I honestly can't understand why one of the most important subway extensions in the city is debated so much. No wonder nothing gets built in this city.

This would be a quick debate if politicians didn't turn subways into the great civil rights issue of our era

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"Recommends" does not mean a subway cannot be built for 8,000 pphpd.

Anyway, this number is being twisted around, both ways. When TTC wanted to put to rest the idea of Sheppard extension, they raised the threshold to 15,000. When they build the Vaughan extension, the fact that it won't have 15,000, 10,000, or even 8,000, does not seem to matter.

Of course it's just a recommendation. We could built a subway with 1 pphpd. But we generally don't because we're intelligent enough to recognize that the money could be spent more efficiently.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Acceptable is a relative term. We can live with very wide-spaced stations, but it is not a good idea given that this particular station is going to be well used.



All transit construction, be it subway, LRT, streetcar, or even a new bus garage, is more expensive these days than it was 50 years ago. Doesn't mean we should stop transit construction. That station is not a huge extra cost, compared to the total cost of the project.

No, it means that we should be smart about how we spend our money; a concept that appears to be foreign to those of us who support this project.

 

[BurlOak]

By the way, considering that the TTC expects that 15 years from now this extension will move only 9,500 pphpd, and that the TTC's transit technology table (Page 12) only recommends subway construction after 10,000 pphpd, the loss of even 1,500 riders is very significant. That ridership is almost as low as Sheppard. If RER has any greater impact, usage on this extension will almost certainly be less than the Sheppard Subway.

I just love that figure. For at least 3 years (probably much more), the pro LRT people are saying that LRT is nothing like Streetcar, yet they are still listed together in a presentation from December 2014. Is there any wonder why it is so easy to say that LRT and Streetcars are (almost) the same thing.

I am not sure if they combined Streetcars with LRT so they could justify using LRT on routes that should have received buses, or if they wanted to portray LRT as a magical form of transit that can satisfy 1,000 to 14,000 pphpd, while the other modes are very limited. Any way you slice it, TTC gave (and continues to give) the impression that LRT and Streetcars are the same thing.

The same chart shows SRT from 8k to 14k. If this is the current operation, then it is actually only carrying about 5k. If it is the Vancouver style SkyTrain, then I think they have gotten closer to 20k.

The other thing I find strange is that a transit system that is to be around for 50 or 100 years, and we are designing to the demand in 2031 - which will be about 8 years after the line opens.

 

[WislaHD]

LRT's are very flexible, with minor adjustments it can run in a center ROW like a streetcar or in a grade separated route like a subway.

I consider the LRT they are building in front of my home on Eglinton to be a subway. I wouldn't call what they are building on Finch or Sheppard a subway. The Scarborough LRT being grade separated would have been an above-ground subway.



While we are on this topic, whats with the obsession of making Eglinton in Scarborough elevated? Elevation is ugly and expansive like tunneling, wouldn't making it trenched in the middle of Eglinton be a far superior alternative? Eglinton in Scarborough is definitely wide enough for it.