innsertnamehere
Superstar
It was pretty clear that the expected off peak service was going to be 15 minutes, much like the lakeshore lines today that run with 30 minute services.
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GenerationW
Senior Member
Get real. A line that's anywhere from 25+ years away to never will have no influence on anything.
nfitz
Superstar
I'm normally faster than average, unless my baby is strapped to me. Not sure what age has to do with anything. The slow ones often seem to the children in their late teens and early twenties adsorbed by the electronic devices.
nfitz
Superstar
I'm normally faster than average, unless my baby is strapped to me. Not sure what age has to do with anything. The slow ones often seem to those in their late teens and early twenties adsorbed by the electronic devices. Though I'm sure most people aren't faster than average!
It's a no-brainer. I can't imagine any professional would disagree with this, and I can't imagine the EA wouldn't recommend it. And didn't I already say this earlier in the thread back in 2013 when council first approved the subway extension?
It's about 1.5 km from Danforth/Eglinton to the entrance to Kennedy station. And then another 2 km from Danforth/Eglinton to Lawrence/McCowan. That 3.5 km is a long way without a station. And far greater I believe than any other gap between stations. The longest gap currently is I think the 2.5 km or so from St. Clair West station to Eglinton West station.
smallspy
Senior Member
If 67% of the riders from the SRT were headed along Eglinton, than I would agree with you.
But they aren't. Most of them are headed to destinations that are on the B-D, some south on the 113 and 20, some headed east on Eglinton, and some west along Eglinton.
Why do you think that the TTC has always said that surface LRT will be more than adequate from Don Mills to Kennedy Station? I've got bad news for you, they don't just pull those numbers out of their collective asses.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Well, the TTC never said that.
They said the ONLY way that surface LRT is adequate from Don Mills (actually Brentcliffe) to Kennedy Station is if all (or at least most) riders are forced off the SRT/LRT and onto the B-D subway.
The only way the chosen solution works is if the majority of riders are inconvenienced. Why else would the projections show about 8,000* passengers continuing along Eglinton if connected, and only a few thousand make the transfer to Eglinton if a transfer is required.
* - The peak ridership approaching Kennedy is about 12,500, so only about 64% of the passengers are inconvenienced, not 67%. I apologize for the earlier exaggeration.
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
There is a segment of riders who will not transfer if they don't need to, until they reach Yonge where they plan to transfer. If the route from Scarborough Centre goes non-stop to Yonge and Bloor that is where they will go, and if the route went non-stop to Yonge and Eglinton then that is the route they would take. They couldn't care less about travelling under Danforth or Eglinton. The convenience of the Eglinton route versus the Danforth route can only be measured in an apples to apples comparison of the line from Scarborough Centre terminating at Kennedy and the option not being about transferring but about route selection. At that point I would imagine it would become a matter of trip time and seat availability at Yonge that would drive the decision.
So the TTC has always said that surface LRT will be more than adequate from Don Mills to Kennedy, but if you redirect passengers from other routes onto the route in addition to what would naturally occur, then obviously the prediction model would change. You could probably set up a feeding network that justifies a subway on any route that approaches Old Toronto, but that doesn't mean that any route should have a subway or is the best place to put one.
smallspy
Senior Member
That's not what was said at the EA meetings for the Crosstown.
The assumption that you - and a lot of other people - make is that the near-entirety of people transferring from the SRT to the B-D are heading downtown. That is simply not true. If it was, than the 12,000 or so people who make that connection in the morning rush hour would be filling up the westbound B-D trains from Kennedy to the point where additional people couldn't get on at Woodbine or Main St. And while the trains are full in the morning heading westbound, to say that there is no more space on the train that far out from Yonge would be false.
Ergo, a lot of people are getting off before Yonge. In fact, considering the size crowds that get out from every single westbound train at Warden - and Victoria Park, and the rest of the stations to the west - I would bet that the percentage may be as high as a third of the people who get on at Kennedy get off of the train by Main St.
So therefore, if that many people are taking the B-D line either directly to their destinations to transferring to a bus via the B-D, how many of them would benefit by taking the Eglinton-Crosstown? While there are some, most will continue to take the B-D even after the opening of the Crosstown, because it is the most convenient route to their destination.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
TransitPolicyChanger
Active Member
My own experience supports this - In the AM rush I get on at Main St and unless there was a delay one can usually get a seat - trains are about every 3 mins (except at the early am rush say before 7am when they are every 5 + mins). In fact the trains are busier from 6 to 7am then from say 7am to 9am. This far east there is a lot of extra capacity - the line gets really busy after Pape and Broadview.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Ditto. The trains are almost always empty at Main Street Station. The first time I used that segment of the line in AM rush, I was surprised by how few people were on the train.
crs1026
Superstar
The Paris RER A and B lines, which are the model for the Metrolinx thinking, offer a theoretical capacity of 55K per hour, but experience an actual usage of 60K per hour. Headways are as frequent as 2 minutes. The key design features that allows this are a digital traffic control system, and a car design with extra wide door capacity (almost a quarter of car length is door) which allows much shorter dwell time in stations. Which makes the debate here a bit of a tempest in a teapot....we aren't in that zone of passenger volumes.
The Tory Smarttrack proposal is an attempt to avoid the enormous cost of a DRL. In my view, that's a wise motive....a DRL is phenomenally costly and will drive development where it isn't desirable (ie in the Pape-Chester area), and I fear it will be a ghost line except at rush hour. (As the University line was for a couple of decades after it was built).
Both Smarttrack and a DRL are just "virtual" forms of added north south capacity in that they reroute Kennedy-Yonge/Bloor-Downtown traffic to a new route, theoretically leaving more seats on the Yonge line. Perhaps a better solution would just be to build a new north-south route and let it justify itself based on the Vaughan-North York-Toronto needs and leave Scarborough out of the discussion.
As for Scarborough, make the STC area more of a jobs zone, link it with downtown by some level of frequent RER that isn't built to a rush hour load capacity, and use the money you save to build transit and quality of life in Scarborough that don't add to downtown trips at all. That's cheaper all round.
As noted, all this will happen long after I'm dead and gone. I do want to be cremated, but not on a pyre of 20-dollar bills obtained from my own taxes.
- Paul
The Tory Smarttrack proposal is an attempt to avoid the enormous cost of a DRL. In my view, that's a wise motive....a DRL is phenomenally costly and will drive development where it isn't desirable (ie in the Pape-Chester area), and I fear it will be a ghost line except at rush hour. (As the University line was for a couple of decades after it was built).
Both Smarttrack and a DRL are just "virtual" forms of added north south capacity in that they reroute Kennedy-Yonge/Bloor-Downtown traffic to a new route, theoretically leaving more seats on the Yonge line. Perhaps a better solution would just be to build a new north-south route and let it justify itself based on the Vaughan-North York-Toronto needs and leave Scarborough out of the discussion.
As for Scarborough, make the STC area more of a jobs zone, link it with downtown by some level of frequent RER that isn't built to a rush hour load capacity, and use the money you save to build transit and quality of life in Scarborough that don't add to downtown trips at all. That's cheaper all round.
As noted, all this will happen long after I'm dead and gone. I do want to be cremated, but not on a pyre of 20-dollar bills obtained from my own taxes.
- Paul
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
could someone remove the metrolinx name from the title of this thread? this is a City of Toronto project now.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Sorry, but the reckless planning of SmartTrack indicates otherwise. Remember that this plan calls for a subway to be built under Eglinton West. That's a line that may very well have less usage than the Sheppard Subway. If Tory was trying to save money by not building the Relief Line, he must want to squander it by building an Eglinton West subway.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That's what we've been trying, and have failed to do for nearly 30 years. Companies don't want their offices located in the suburbs. In fact, many companies that opened suburban offices are now relocating to the downtown core.
ehlow
Senior Member
I think it would have a lot more ridership than Sheppard. It would be a fast line from mississauga to downtown.