TOareaFan
Superstar
Call me confused.....this money is not a "Mississauga or Scarborough" pot of money is it? I thought it was the same money committed for the LRT just re-worked for the subway....either way it gets spent on/in Scarborough....no?
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Call me confused.....this money is not a "Mississauga or Scarborough" pot of money is it? I thought it was the same money committed for the LRT just re-worked for the subway....either way it gets spent on/in Scarborough....no?
Adjei
Senior Member
And council hasn't been arrogant by changing plans whenever they want? We need someone to tell it like it is. We are sick of all these games.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I hope this is just a devious tactic to show the stupidity of building a subway without committing more funds, and not a real proposal. I would love for this to be fiction and to expose the idiocy of Ford and Stintz's waffling subway plans for Scarborough, even if it means delaying real rapid transit in Scarborough. There are several things to consider, however:
1. How much do we trust Glen Murray to use this as an elaborate ploy? IIRC, wasn't he the one who initially reopened the possibility of a Scarborough subway like an old wound?
2. If we had never built the Scarborough RT in the first place, this is actually not a bad alignment. It passes by Scarborough Hospital (major trip generator) and there is a lot of development potential at Sheppard and McCowan, instead of Sheppard and Markham Rd.
3. There is the possibility of a BRT along the hydro corridor from McCowan and Lawrence to the northeast opening up quicker access to Rouge Valley Centenary Hospital, Centennial College and U of T Scarborough. Nevertheless, I don't think anybody is thinking about this right now.
4. If you built this, you wouldn't have to shut down the SRT during the duration of construction.
But the fact of the matter is that we already do have rapid transit to Scarborough, and this would duplicate an existing route, albeit shifted 2 km to the east. In that sense it's incredibly stupid and definitely not worth 1.4 billion dollars (actually, I think this would be much more). Like I said, I sincerely hope it's just an elaborate ploy to expose the stupidity of a Scarborough subway route. The bad news is that I don't think this will convince council to go back to the original LRT idea.
1. How much do we trust Glen Murray to use this as an elaborate ploy? IIRC, wasn't he the one who initially reopened the possibility of a Scarborough subway like an old wound?
2. If we had never built the Scarborough RT in the first place, this is actually not a bad alignment. It passes by Scarborough Hospital (major trip generator) and there is a lot of development potential at Sheppard and McCowan, instead of Sheppard and Markham Rd.
3. There is the possibility of a BRT along the hydro corridor from McCowan and Lawrence to the northeast opening up quicker access to Rouge Valley Centenary Hospital, Centennial College and U of T Scarborough. Nevertheless, I don't think anybody is thinking about this right now.
4. If you built this, you wouldn't have to shut down the SRT during the duration of construction.
But the fact of the matter is that we already do have rapid transit to Scarborough, and this would duplicate an existing route, albeit shifted 2 km to the east. In that sense it's incredibly stupid and definitely not worth 1.4 billion dollars (actually, I think this would be much more). Like I said, I sincerely hope it's just an elaborate ploy to expose the stupidity of a Scarborough subway route. The bad news is that I don't think this will convince council to go back to the original LRT idea.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I found the municipal politicians dictating the format and routing of the line while contributing pittance far more arrogant. In any event, no matter the outcome, Scarborough will be having the transit line it deserves.
AoD
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Yeah, measy x% increase across the entire city (because god forbid, it is THE priority) raising a pittance relative to the overall cost of the project and dictating the routing and mode? The optics of that...
AoD
nhui06
Active Member
I always thought that the subway plan was going to end up at STC instead Sheppard; tunneling under the 401 would have been way too expensive. I have to disagree about the development potential at Sheppard and McCowan though; currently there is a Canadian Tire, and 1-2 apartment buildings only. Near by are a few industrial buildings. The only reason to bring the subway up to Sheppard is so it will meet up with the Sheppard LRT, but even now I wonder if they will build that (the Scarb LRT will share Collins Yard with the Sheppard LRT. Now that we have no Scarb LRT, is it worth building a yard just for a few LRTs for Sheppard? Will they use the $1 billion or so from Sheppard to just extend the Sheppard subway to Vic Park and build BRTs the rest of the way? Maybe....
I think this is a good move by Murray IMO. He is giving the City Council 2 choices based on the funds available; you want a short subway, or you want a longer LRT? Your move Toronto/Scarborough.
k10ery
Senior Member
This is the perfect outcome ... for the politicians. They can all claim they wanted a subway in Scarborough, and blame the other guys for it not getting done.
It would take an enormous act of leadership and principle for any of the key players to reverse stand now and support an LRT. We should not expect leadership or principle from Stintz, Ford, or Murray. There will very likely be no real decision before the 2014 city elections, maybe not before the 2015 provincial elections.
Scarborough, enjoy your bus rides.
It would take an enormous act of leadership and principle for any of the key players to reverse stand now and support an LRT. We should not expect leadership or principle from Stintz, Ford, or Murray. There will very likely be no real decision before the 2014 city elections, maybe not before the 2015 provincial elections.
Scarborough, enjoy your bus rides.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't see the city backing out and going back to the LRT plan now - the logic of the additional number of stops notwithstanding, it's always about the mode first. I don't detect any appetite to open the debate yet again.
AoD
AoD
nfitz
Superstar
Surely the city would have to open up the debate now, if they don't proceed with the LRT. TTC and the City Manager have no authority to amend the current LRT agreement with Metrolinx if a) the subway doesn't go to Sheppard b) the province doesn't provide $1.8 billion instead of $1.4 billion c) the feds don't kick in some money.
nhui06
Active Member
I think they are missing an opportunity here to put a station at Kennedy Commons (Kennedy and Progress). They just need to dig around 500m north and they will be able to access a fairly dense neighborhood in Scarborough (Dorset). Currently there are a few apartment complex and a big size commercial plaza there, so it will serve quite a few people. It will also be around 1 km away from Kennedy and Sheppard, which is another fairly dense area in Scarborough (Agincourt).
DSC
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He who pays the piper calls the tune; if anyone is arrogant it is the Councillors who want to build a subway that will serve far fewer people and cost far more than an LRT and then expect others to pay for it.
Tulse
Senior Member
This really looks like a "be careful what you wish for" scenario. In political terms, Murray's move is brilliant -- it makes it clear how much subway the declared provincial money will buy, without committing any more funds. It really forces the city to put up or shut up. It's cynical, but pretty damned smart on his part.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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It's always someone else's fault with you - when will you admit the voters screwed the pooch?
TOareaFan
Superstar
Not disputing the city's role as you describe but is the right/reasoned response to that building an even more limited subway with even less stops that will serve even fewer people?
If the city's "planned" subway was so bad relative to the LRT option is it not the Province/Metrolinx' job to show that the LRT was a) rapid transit for Scarborough b) appropriate RT for the area and c) a plan that would serve more people?
The opportunity to do that is gone (probably when Mr. Murray announced that subways meant that Scarborough residents were no longer second class citizens when he did his first subway presser) but to go back now and say the LRT should not have been abandoned and that the abandonment of the subway is all the city's fault is not sitting right with me.
Tulse
Senior Member
The right and reasoned response for dealing with implacable wrong irrationality is often just to throw up one's hands and say, "Fine, you voted to kill our better plan, so here's what you wanted!"
From the start of Ford's administration, City Council has been dithering and reversing itself and screwing over all the work that the province and Metrolinx has done. I'm not surprised that the province has finally decided to screw over the city by giving it what it asked for.