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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

If Toronto has 3 freeways to keep up then why don't they toll them instead of demanding the rest of Ontario pay for it?

Toronto, you forget, also is the recipient of Queen's Park largess thru gov't jobs, conventions, and contracts, far disproportionate amount of cultural spending, and blank cheques on transit. The Gardiner and DVP were already Toronto roads but London got the entire Weinge Expressway downloaded on it but it won't be holding it's breath for Queen's Park to pay for any upcoming repairs.
 
innsertnamehere said:
In torontos defence it heavily subsidizes the surrounding municipalities, whether that be union station upgrades mainly benefiting suburban commuters, TTC subsidization for a large percentage of suburban users, (this does go both ways, but I have a feeling that Toronto gets the short end of the stick overall) and 3 freeways that should be under provincial control but are maintained by Toronto. Not to mention toronto maintains the subway network, at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars a year, which is a huge regional piece of infrastructure.
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The majority of what you list also benefits Toronto's largest property tax bills; downtown businesses. Scotia Plaza alone pays around $20M/year to the city (education portion is another $18M) based on $1.27B valuation.

It's not enough to cover everything you mention, but it would get more than half of it today and is a growing portion of the tax base.
 
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Palma said:
Then you have your head buried in the sand or you work at Metrolinx.
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he has a point.. It would be like if it was revealed that the CEO of Sam's Club was spending company cash on his own personal mansions around the world, and automatically assuming The wal-mart CEO was doing the same thing.. it doesn't make sense. sure, they are both the same "company", but both are operated by different people.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I love how Torontonians bring up things like gas plants and Orange as proof of government waste and how if the money wasn't wasted there it could have been spent on Toronto transit.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are there not 10.5 million Ontarians who don't live in Toronto? The taxpayers of Leamington, London, and Lindsay got just as ripped off as Torontonians but they sure as hell aren't getting 100%So consider that next time you want to go on an anti-toronto rampage. of their transit/roads paid for by Queen's Park. How can these boondoggles be used as an excuse for Toronto to get more money but somehow that logic doesn't apply once you leave the city boundaries?

This obscene and pathetic situation is caused ultimately by Torontonians themselves although saying such a thing is considered heresy in polite company. Everything that is wrong in Toronto is everyone else's fault and hence everyone except Torontonians should have to pay. Oh but wait it's not OUR fault but rather the politicians............well the politicians didn't get there by themselves. The hicks of the province , you know the one's that live east of the Zoo, north of Steeles, and west of the 427, just don't understand the importance of transit to Toronto as they just drive around with SUVs all day. Of course the hicks that Torontonians expect to pick up the tab weren't stupid enough to elect such a moron for a mayor, gutless wonders as councillors, and planners who wouldn't know fiscal responsibility if it slapped them in the face.

Instead of complaining at the politicians which they wilfully voted in or bitching at Queen's Park demanding more money from the rest of the Ontario taxpayers because they don't feel they should have to contribute a nickel to anything, maybe Torontonians should look in the mirror to find out who is at the root of Toronto's problems. Maybe that will help them come to the radical realization that most of the planet figure out at the same time as the wheel was invented...............sometimes you have to pay for things yourself.
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I honestly dont know where you people come from. According to a government report, Toronto pays something like $11 Billion in taxes to different levels of government annually that it never sees back in services. The money generated in urban areas in Toronto go directly towards subsidizing suburban and rural areas. That means that Toronto taxpayers are taking massive hits to subsidize your schools, healthcare and roads. If Toronto were to leave Ontario, the city would be fine and the rest of the province would be quite screwed. Consider that next time you go on an anti-toronto rampage.
 
Palma said:
Then you have your head buried in the sand or you work at Metrolinx.
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This thread is about the Scarborough RT and Extension. It's also become the place to discuss the Danforth subway extension to Sheppard (though surely that should be a new thread).

I don't see how the gas plants, e-Health, or the Loch Ness monster is on-topic. There's plenty of places for these topics at http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php/22-Politics-amp-Diplomacy

Palma said:
or you work at Metrolinx.
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Why do you assume someone who is against trolling works at Metrolinx? No don't answer, it's rhetorical.
 
innsertnamehere said:
I am still surprised that highway 7/8 in Kitchener is provincially owned, I always thought it would be municipal.
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7/8 connects provincial highway 8 to Stratford. Not sure why that would become Kitchener's responsibility. The only piece of Conestoga Expressway in that region that was clearly not provincial was provincial highway 86 (formerly provincial highway 85) which was downloaded to the Region of Waterloo (becoming Regional 85).

innsertnamehere said:
Basically, Kitchener sticks $300 million in capital fees once, but gets free highways forever. (They also get ownership of the LRT, and gain access to the equity involved in it)
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Kitchener has absolutely no ownership of the LRT. It will be owned by the Region of Waterloo. And I'd think that if highways were downloaded, they'd be going to the Region of Waterloo, not Kitchener.
 
7/8 connects provincial highway 8 to Stratford. Not sure why that would become Kitchener's responsibility. The only piece of Conestoga Expressway in that region that was clearly not provincial was provincial highway 86 (formerly provincial highway 85) which was downloaded to the Region of Waterloo (becoming Regional 85).
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The entire Conestoga Parkway is provincially owned and maintained, including the sections that carry Highway 7 (between Highway 8 and Victoria Street) and Highway 85 (between Victoria Street and the most northerly King Street interchange in Woolwich Township). Highway 85 was renumbered from Highway 86, and was actually a restoration of the original highway number as Highway 86 used to continue east to Guelph via Elmira Street and 85 connected 86 and Kitchener from Elmira. When the Elmira-Guelph section of 86 was downloaded, 86 was rerouted south over 85's old route.

Waterloo Region only maintains the two-lane section of 85 north of King Street.

In 1998, when Harris' dumb highway downloading spree was underway, the province dumped all of Highway 86 except the Conestoga Parkway section, and it was eventally redesignated Highway 85. My guess as to why the province still maintains it is because of long term plans for Highway 7 New; Waterloo Region would be capable of maintaining a short freeway as does Windsor with the EC Row Expressway, also downloaded in 1998.
 
I thought that E.C. ROW was always a municipal expressway.. Interesting.

nfitz said:
7/8 connects provincial highway 8 to Stratford. Not sure why that would become Kitchener's responsibility. The only piece of Conestoga Expressway in that region that was clearly not provincial was provincial highway 86 (formerly provincial highway 85) which was downloaded to the Region of Waterloo (becoming Regional 85).

Kitchener has absolutely no ownership of the LRT. It will be owned by the Region of Waterloo. And I'd think that if highways were downloaded, they'd be going to the Region of Waterloo, not Kitchener.
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don't nitpick at the details. My point was that the regional municipality (whether that be Waterloo or Kitchener) would maintain ownership of the infrastructure, rather than the Province, which will be the case in Toronto.

Also, I could argue the same thing about the DVP and Gardiner. The Gardiner is an connects the QEW to Downtown Toronto! Surely that is important enough to be provincially owned! Or how about the DVP? It connects the QEW (or what should be the QEW) to the 404! Surely, the DVP should be called Highway 404 and be provincially maintained! But they aren't. A very strong case could be made that Highway 7/8/85 in Waterloo are more local roads than the DVP and Gardiner. (I will admit that the Allen has no reason to be provincially owned. if it hadn't been cut in half it probably should have been, but it's current form is a local road only)
 
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innsertnamehere said:
don't nitpick at the details. My point was that the regional municipality (whether that be Waterloo or Kitchener) would maintain ownership of the infrastructure, rather than the Province, which will be the case in Toronto.
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The devil is in the details.

Speaking of details, if you want the treatment that Waterloo is getting, shouldn't the province be paying 1/3 of the Eglinton line instead of 100%?
 
but that would mean that 1/3 would come from the Feds as well, and that Toronto would maintain ownership. It wouldn't be that bad then, Toronto pays just over 2 billion but gets $8 billion in assets to own.

besides, Toronto will likely end up paying a bit in the end anyways. if the projects go a cent over budget, the City is the one paying up.
 
One thing that I haven't seen a lot of discussion about is how long it's going to take to plan, design, approve and build a subway extension to Scarborough. Looking at the Spadina extension to Vaughan as an example the planning was started sometime before 2002 when the TTC first put it forward for funding. The first riders will be using the extension in 2016 if everything goes to the current schedule. That is 14 years. The Crosstown was first put forward in or around 2004 and it will hopefully be carrying its first customers in 2018 - again 14 years.

The SRT conversion to LRT could be finished as soon as 2018 under the current plans, approvals and funding. A subway extension, assuming a 14 year plan, design, approval and build cycle, won't be running until 2027. By moving to subway the City is potentially subjecting Scarboroughians to another nine years of sub par bus/SRT transit service, which has a huge economic and social cost, not to mention it probably means they'll need to update the aging SRT line one more time, which I'm sure they haven't factored into their cost calculations. It also gives politicians an extra nine years to mess about with the plans and possibly scuttle the whole idea. Are Scarboroughians really happy about this?

I would have thought a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
 
All this talk, debate, and delay and what does Toronto get in the end..................$85 million bill.

Imagine, that $85 million would have completely replaced the MK1 with the new MK111 trains and Toronto wouldn't even be having this conversation.
 
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