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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Then the city stated that if the Feds could fund it they would build it, but I doubt the Feds will fund it.
The motion explicitly states $1.8 billion contribution from the province is required. It's that simple. "City Council confirm its support for the Scarborough Subway contingent on b. provincial contribution of $1.8 billion (2010 $)"

There's nothing in the decision saying that they'd still go ahead with the subway if the province provides $1.4 billion and the feds make up the rest.
 
The motion explicitly states $1.8 billion contribution from the province is required. It's that simple. "City Council confirm its support for the Scarborough Subway contingent on b. provincial contribution of $1.8 billion (2010 $)"

There's nothing in the decision saying that they'd still go ahead with the subway if the province provides $1.4 billion and the feds make up the rest.

So you don't think they will build it if the Feds choose to make up the difference? With how desperate various politicians are for this to be built, if the money is available and it doesn't matter from who, its getting built.
 
So you don't think they will build it if the Feds choose to make up the difference? With how desperate various politicians are for this to be built, if the money is available and it doesn't matter from who, its getting built.

I'm simply saying that Toronto council has not provided clarity on the matter.
 
I disagree, Council has been quite clear in that it supports a subway given the named stipulations. Until the Sept 30 deadline hits any lack of funding from upper levels of government doesn't change Council's position. The demand for $1.8 from the province is legally needed but really it would be beyond dumb to think that everything would fall apart if say the feds provided the extra money. Sure Council would have to pass a new motion but do you really think council would say no to money it doesn't need to provide?

Politically the Liberals are in real tough spot after the by elections. In Scarborough-Guildwood they didn't just support a subway they made it the central issue of the campaign. Campaigning like that even after saying they'd only provide $1.4b will look terrible if the subway gets scrapped. Liberal support in all Scarborough ridings will plummet unless they can perfectly shift the blame and shifting the blame will be tough if it's over $1.4 vs. $1.8 since like I said they knew this when they campaigned for the by-election.
 
I disagree, Council has been quite clear in that it supports a subway given the named stipulations.
You disagree that council has failed to be clear?

Well, I suppose, but given that 24-hours later, the province clearly announced that the city wouldn't get the $1.8 billion, then it's hardly clear at all!

Until the Sept 30 deadline hits any lack of funding from upper levels of government doesn't change Council's position.
There's no deadline in the decision. There's simply a request that the money be provided by that date. I don't think there's anything in the decision stopping the city manager from signing a deal if the money appears after that date. However the way it's phrased, even if the province only ponied up $1.7 billion, and the feds provided $50 trillion it would still have to go back to council. And if within a year, it would require a 2/3 vote to change, as council has already dealt with it.

The demand for $1.8 from the province is legally needed but really it would be beyond dumb to think that everything would fall apart if say the feds provided the extra money. Sure Council would have to pass a new motion but do you really think council would say no to money it doesn't need to provide?
Oh, sure they would. But what are the chances the feds are going to do this? In the city manager's report, if the province provided $1.8 billion, they would still be looking for $378 million from the feds. Presumably then, if the province only provides $1.4 billion, they are looking for $778 million from the feds. At the same time the city is only providing $378 million? (all $ are 2010). The city expects the feds to pay 30% while the city is only paying 15%?

I doubt the feds will deliver anything. I certainly don't expect them to delivery more than the city. I expect the real outcome of this is that the province provides $1.4 billion, and if the city really wants it, they'll have to find the other $1.156 billion themselves. But I doubt they'll ever get the 2/3 vote to approve that.

Politically the Liberals are in real tough spot after the by elections. In Scarborough-Guildwood they didn't just support a subway they made it the central issue of the campaign. Campaigning like that even after saying they'd only provide $1.4b will look terrible if the subway gets scrapped. Liberal support in all Scarborough ridings will plummet unless they can perfectly shift the blame and shifting the blame will be tough if it's over $1.4 vs. $1.8 since like I said they knew this when they campaigned for the by-election.
I doubt that will be a factor. Surely proceeding with cancelling the LRT and then providing a sweet deal for Toronto as well, much, much better than the 1/3 they are providing Ottawa and Waterloo for their new rapid transit will be a much bigger target on the Liberals after the gas plant cancellation.

I think Stintz had backed herself into a corner, and unless there's an unlikely very large pile of cash from the feds, I don't know how she'll get out of it.

I still wouldn't be surprised that if at the end of the day, they simply don't end up spending $300 million or so, for newer SRT vehicles and adjust the Ellesmere-Midland tunnel to cope with them and leave the current stations alone (including Kennedy).
 
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Maybe it's semantics but I guess my thoughts are there's a difference between council giving a position and whether or not that position is realistically workable. I imagine that technically apolitical agencies like Metrolinx have to look at what council says to get their view in a sort of vacuum as to what else is happening - such as when they had to ask council for confirmation since they listened to that first unclear motion months ago when they really didn't need to. Of course Metrolinx is far from actually being apolitical so the grey area is HUGE. Staff will find their way of interpreting things but alas the reality of politics as you say really does make things unclear.

Politically this can be a mess any way as you said. Helping Toronto can only piss off other regions - Mississauga has been very vocal about wanting their share. It'll all come down to how it's all spun by the politicians whichever way it goes. I do tend to focus on the effects in Toronto since it's where I live and it's easier for me to judge than in Waterloo. That and while Toronto may not be the centre of the universe those seats are always of great importance during an election.

On the other point I wonder if the benefits of consolidating the technology to LRT all over Toronto really is that much better than just making the route compatible for newer vehicles. At least thanks to Vancouver there's a production line for MKIII vehicles now.
 
On the other point I wonder if the benefits of consolidating the technology to LRT all over Toronto really is that much better than just making the route compatible for newer vehicles. At least thanks to Vancouver there's a production line for MKIII vehicles now.
Given we're now talking in the $3 billion range by the time you escalate all the costs ... you do have to wonder if simply buying a new fleet of vehicles for the existing system, expanding the existing yard, and adjusting the curve between Ellesmere and Midland would be the simplest, cheapest, solution.

Here's the original 2006 report BTW - had to dig for it ... http://web.archive.org/web/20060903...carborough_rt_strategic_plan_study_report.pdf
 
I can't help but think SRT will be replaced by buses in a few years. The end of life for the SRT is imminent and the city has canceled a funded project to replace it with an unfunded plan. In the end if the SRT needs work done the city is going to get stuck with the bill to either extend the life of the SRT or be forced to decommission it. The city needs to pony up the money for a subway, approve LRT, or be stuck throwing away money to keep the SRT alive.
 
The city needs to pony up the money for a subway, approve LRT, or be stuck throwing away money to keep the SRT alive.
With the amount of money the city has already committed with the tax increase, they could easily 100% fund a scaled back plan to simply buy new vehicles, do the necessary repairs/upgrades to the line, with the only major construction the alteration of the Ellesmere-Midland tunnel to handle the new vehicles. They could even try something innovative and simply issue a tender for vehicles that can run on the current alignment and see if anyone bites.
 
With the amount of money the city has already committed with the tax increase, they could easily 100% fund a scaled back plan to simply buy new vehicles, do the necessary repairs/upgrades to the line, with the only major construction the alteration of the Ellesmere-Midland tunnel to handle the new vehicles. They could even try something innovative and simply issue a tender for vehicles that can run on the current alignment and see if anyone bites.

Why would that be preferable to the already funded plan to extend and expand the line?
 
They could even try something innovative and simply issue a tender for vehicles that can run on the current alignment and see if anyone bites.

I wonder if they ever considered issuing an RFP for rolling stock compatible with the alignment as well as a conversion to traditional traction motors. Would it even take much conversion? The rails are standard gauge and there's a third rail and signalling... Couldn't they just leave the LIM track in place but unused and remove it gradually? Surely designing rolling stock to meet the Mk. 1's dimensions isn't a very challenging business. These automated metros are pretty similar other than the LIM
 
Why would that be preferable to the already funded plan to extend and expand the line?

Doesn't make sense to use the property tax increase to go for the cheapest option when the Province already commited $1.8 billion. I know it'll never happen, but the best idea is to go back to the LRT plan.
 
Why would that be preferable to the already funded plan to extend and expand the line?
It wouldn't. But presumably if the city continues to waffle back and forth, that money will vanish sooner or later. Surely the province would sooner or later spend the $1.4 billion on a line which is municipally supported - such as Hurontario.
 

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