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YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

Not a fair comparison. I don't know about the rest, but Tel Aviv has a Chinese company building the line.
How is that not fair? Who cares what company is building it, what matters is what got built.

Besides, you didn't even bother saying anything about any of the other examples. Even if you exclude Tel Aviv, 75% of the examples are still cheaper than ECLRT.

Canada, US, and UK pretty much have the most expensive transit construction costs anywhere in the world (see: SSE, Second Avenue Subway, Boston Green Line extension, HS2, Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, etc.)
 
How is that not fair? Who cares what company is building it, what matters is what got built.

Besides, you didn't even bother saying anything about any of the other examples. Even if you exclude Tel Aviv, 75% of the examples are still cheaper than ECLRT.

Canada, US, and UK pretty much have the most expensive transit construction costs anywhere in the world (see: SSE, Second Avenue Subway, Boston Green Line extension, HS2, Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, etc.)
Chinese companies bring in Chinese workers at much lower wages. Canada would never allow that.
 
Chinese companies bring in Chinese workers at much lower wages. Canada would never allow that.
Are you just assuming this or do you have evidence?

I am involved in a large construction project in Canada, and the contractor is bringing in some specialized labour from eastern europe. It is not necessarily because it is cheaper (with travel, accommodations, etc.), but they are trained to perform specific installation tasks.
 
Are you just assuming this or do you have evidence?

I am involved in a large construction project in Canada, and the contractor is bringing in some specialized labour from eastern europe. It is not necessarily because it is cheaper (with travel, accommodations, etc.), but they are trained to perform specific installation tasks.
It is well known across the world that China's state-owned enterprises (such as construction or natural resource corporations like CCCC, CNOOC, CNPC, or CSCEC), when operating abroad, choose to import their own workforce instead of using a local one. There are a wealth of examples across the world, including in Montenegro, Israel, Vietnam, Philippines, Ghana, Saipan (a US overseas territory), and unfortunately, even in Alberta and BC. It is a very real occurrence and it consistently coincides with projects being constructed by China-owned companies. While in some developing nations the workers may get paid more than the average wage of the host country, they are paid less than an equivalent worker in developed countries, and often have to pay more than a year's salary in China just to be positioned abroad, so they come indebted and are worked much harder than what they're being paid for, which keeps costs lower.
 
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Point is when people think that $250 million per km is horrible.... we have a horrible that is being built.

Lets stop using full lifecycle costs and instead use CAPITAL Costs like normal people:

Hurontario LRT CAPITAL cost: 2.1 Billion
ECLRT CAPITAL cost: 5.3 Billion

Hurontario CAPITAL Cost/km — 2.1B/18 km = ~117 M$/km
ECLRT CAPITAL Cost/km — 5.3B/19km = ~279 M$/km

It should be noted that over half of the ECLRT is underground, that it includes more vehicles, and that it will likely run more frequently.

The cost is way too high.

Chinese companies bring in Chinese workers at much lower wages. Canada would never allow that.
Hmm, Paris' costs are much lower than ours (less than half) they must not have unions or environmental regs in Europe right?
 
Chinese companies bring in Chinese workers at much lower wages. Canada would never allow that.
I would go into the fact that you continue to ignore jelbana's other examples, and how Chinese company =/= inexpensive project. But honestly, that's besides the point.

Europe (excluding UK) does full blown 100% underground metro for $100-250M/km. Spain does it for under $100M/km.

The fact that we are building the half-underground ECLRT for $231M/km and will build the half-underground Ontario Line for almost $500M/km is very concerning.

The fact that only a few years ago, 100% underground TYSSE with its excessive stations 'only' cost $300M/km makes it even worse.
Sheppard only cost $150M/km.

Attributing our ballooning costs to the fact that we don't use Chinese companies and pay higher wages only serves to add to our complacency.

Something has to be going seriously wrong with transit construction here.

I recommend looking at this for a better idea of what Canadian transit construction costs are like: https://transitcosts.com/data/
 
I would go into the fact that you continue to ignore jelbana's other examples, and how Chinese company =/= inexpensive project. But honestly, that's besides the point.

Europe (excluding UK) does full blown 100% underground metro for $100-250M/km. Spain does it for under $100M/km.

The fact that we are building the half-underground ECLRT for $231M/km and will build the half-underground Ontario Line for almost $500M/km is very concerning.

The fact that only a few years ago, 100% underground TYSSE with its excessive stations 'only' cost $300M/km makes it even worse.
Sheppard only cost $150M/km.

Attributing our ballooning costs to the fact that we don't use Chinese companies and pay higher wages only serves to add to our complacency.

Something has to be going seriously wrong with transit construction here.

I recommend looking at this for a better idea of what Canadian transit construction costs are like: https://transitcosts.com/data/
Factoring in inflation at the start of construction, the use of only 2 TBMs, and the fact that the Sheppard subway was bare-bones built, the cost of the TYSSE and Sheppard subway are pretty similar.
 
Are you just assuming this or do you have evidence?

I am involved in a large construction project in Canada, and the contractor is bringing in some specialized labour from eastern europe. It is not necessarily because it is cheaper (with travel, accommodations, etc.), but they are trained to perform specific installation tasks.
 
Factoring in inflation at the start of construction, the use of only 2 TBMs, and the fact that the Sheppard subway was bare-bones built, the cost of the TYSSE and Sheppard subway are pretty similar.
Yeah but the differences are a big part of why the costs are different, of course they are similar if you remove them lol
 
Hmm. I was simply looking at capital costs, as quoted here:


Are you sure the $4.6B in Wikipedia doesn’t include the operating costs? That is, the “O” in the DBFOM? Or were you quoting the cost to build, operate and maintain each km of line?
Nope, the Hurontario $4.6 billion figure is for the full DBFOM contract with the consortium including 30 years of "O". The last Auditor General report got into the numbers in some more detail --- see here.

As I understand it, it's $5.6 billion for the whole project in the broadest sense. The first $1 billion of that are costs that aren't covered by the P3 contract --- that would have to include all the stuff that was bought and paid for between when they starting planning the line and when the consortium got signed on, like preliminary designs, EAs, bid fees, utilities moves etc., all the property, plus costs of all the Metrolinx staff and IO staff and consultants and lawyers etc. from both before and during the P3. (Can anyone think of anything else?) The remaining $4.6 billion is the P3 contract, and within that number is $1.76 billion to build the line. Everything else must be the FOM.
 
The Major Mackenzie stop on Viva Blue isn't at Major Mackenzie Drive, but is located one block south. Because Yonge Street narrows in old Downtown Richmond Hill, the rapidway ends at Major Mack and picks up again just south of Elgin Mills, and the region didn't make room for a proper stop. Therefore, pedestrians are forced to walk out of their way, and beg to cross at another crosswalk, to get to Viva buses, or transfer to Routes 4 and 25. Temporary barriers and regular transit enforcement cop detail make it clear that this was a mess-up.



IMG_2559-001.JPG
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The Major Mackenzie stop on Viva Blue isn't at Major Mackenzie Drive, but is located one block south. Because Yonge Street narrows in old Downtown Richmond Hill, the rapidway ends at Major Mack and picks up again just south of Elgin Mills, and the region didn't make room for a proper stop. Therefore, pedestrians are forced to walk out of their way, and beg to cross at another crosswalk, to get to Viva buses, or transfer to Routes 4 and 25. Temporary barriers and regular transit enforcement cop detail make it clear that this was a mess-up.



View attachment 301207.
I think reconstructing the intersection is the only solution here and it doesn't even have to be much. To obtain more space, the northbound left turn lane can be closed and traffic can turn one light earlier at Hopkins Street with a new traffic signal added at Atkinson Street to turn onto Major Mackenzie Drive. This would allow for a single pedestrian path on the east side of the lanes in the median to be built. Southbound passengers can cross the bus lanes from a pedestrian crossing at the north of the station, where busses will yield.
Yonge and Major Mackenzie.png
 
I think reconstructing the intersection is the only solution here and it doesn't even have to be much. To obtain more space, the northbound left turn lane can be closed and traffic can turn one light earlier at Hopkins Street with a new traffic signal added at Atkinson Street to turn onto Major Mackenzie Drive. This would allow for a single pedestrian path on the east side of the lanes in the median to be built. Southbound passengers can cross the bus lanes from a pedestrian crossing at the north of the station, where busses will yield.
View attachment 301239
That sounds like an easy way to have everyone in Richmond Hill turn against you and tear you to shreds. I feel like the reason why the stop is built as it is is because I think they want to leave room for a potential underground tunnel under Richmond Hill Centre. A lot of older renders seem to consider this as a possibility:
1613961306096.png
 

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