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YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

superelevation

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Factoring in inflation at the start of construction, the use of only 2 TBMs, and the fact that the Sheppard subway was bare-bones built, the cost of the TYSSE and Sheppard subway are pretty similar.
Yeah but the differences are a big part of why the costs are different, of course they are similar if you remove them lol
 

Platform 27

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Hmm. I was simply looking at capital costs, as quoted here:


Are you sure the $4.6B in Wikipedia doesn’t include the operating costs? That is, the “O” in the DBFOM? Or were you quoting the cost to build, operate and maintain each km of line?
Nope, the Hurontario $4.6 billion figure is for the full DBFOM contract with the consortium including 30 years of "O". The last Auditor General report got into the numbers in some more detail --- see here.

As I understand it, it's $5.6 billion for the whole project in the broadest sense. The first $1 billion of that are costs that aren't covered by the P3 contract --- that would have to include all the stuff that was bought and paid for between when they starting planning the line and when the consortium got signed on, like preliminary designs, EAs, bid fees, utilities moves etc., all the property, plus costs of all the Metrolinx staff and IO staff and consultants and lawyers etc. from both before and during the P3. (Can anyone think of anything else?) The remaining $4.6 billion is the P3 contract, and within that number is $1.76 billion to build the line. Everything else must be the FOM.
 

ShonTron

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The Major Mackenzie stop on Viva Blue isn't at Major Mackenzie Drive, but is located one block south. Because Yonge Street narrows in old Downtown Richmond Hill, the rapidway ends at Major Mack and picks up again just south of Elgin Mills, and the region didn't make room for a proper stop. Therefore, pedestrians are forced to walk out of their way, and beg to cross at another crosswalk, to get to Viva buses, or transfer to Routes 4 and 25. Temporary barriers and regular transit enforcement cop detail make it clear that this was a mess-up.



IMG_2559-001.JPG
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Leo_Chan

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The Major Mackenzie stop on Viva Blue isn't at Major Mackenzie Drive, but is located one block south. Because Yonge Street narrows in old Downtown Richmond Hill, the rapidway ends at Major Mack and picks up again just south of Elgin Mills, and the region didn't make room for a proper stop. Therefore, pedestrians are forced to walk out of their way, and beg to cross at another crosswalk, to get to Viva buses, or transfer to Routes 4 and 25. Temporary barriers and regular transit enforcement cop detail make it clear that this was a mess-up.



View attachment 301207.
I think reconstructing the intersection is the only solution here and it doesn't even have to be much. To obtain more space, the northbound left turn lane can be closed and traffic can turn one light earlier at Hopkins Street with a new traffic signal added at Atkinson Street to turn onto Major Mackenzie Drive. This would allow for a single pedestrian path on the east side of the lanes in the median to be built. Southbound passengers can cross the bus lanes from a pedestrian crossing at the north of the station, where busses will yield.
Yonge and Major Mackenzie.png
 

ARG1

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I think reconstructing the intersection is the only solution here and it doesn't even have to be much. To obtain more space, the northbound left turn lane can be closed and traffic can turn one light earlier at Hopkins Street with a new traffic signal added at Atkinson Street to turn onto Major Mackenzie Drive. This would allow for a single pedestrian path on the east side of the lanes in the median to be built. Southbound passengers can cross the bus lanes from a pedestrian crossing at the north of the station, where busses will yield.
View attachment 301239
That sounds like an easy way to have everyone in Richmond Hill turn against you and tear you to shreds. I feel like the reason why the stop is built as it is is because I think they want to leave room for a potential underground tunnel under Richmond Hill Centre. A lot of older renders seem to consider this as a possibility:
1613961306096.png
 

cplchanb

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I think reconstructing the intersection is the only solution here and it doesn't even have to be much. To obtain more space, the northbound left turn lane can be closed and traffic can turn one light earlier at Hopkins Street with a new traffic signal added at Atkinson Street to turn onto Major Mackenzie Drive. This would allow for a single pedestrian path on the east side of the lanes in the median to be built. Southbound passengers can cross the bus lanes from a pedestrian crossing at the north of the station, where busses will yield.
View attachment 301239
it would make sense if the station was farther north, closer to MM than currently, but considering that the stop is pretty much at the intersection as you have illuistrated, ther distance and time required to get from MM to the stop is pretty much tyhe same for both cases.
I would suppose its now just a matter of conditioning the mind to realise that it will take similar time to get to the stop the correct way than to jaywalk to the stop from the top.
 

sche

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That sounds like an easy way to have everyone in Richmond Hill turn against you and tear you to shreds. I feel like the reason why the stop is built as it is is because I think they want to leave room for a potential underground tunnel under Richmond Hill Centre. A lot of older renders seem to consider this as a possibility:
View attachment 301240
Yeah no. That was a complete joke, even more so than Brampton’s laughable LRT tunnel. And besides, even if a tunnel were to be built in 30 years, moving a stop like that is basically a nothing cost in a ~1.3 km tunnel project. And in the meantime, every single person who transfers at that intersection has to waste 5 mins walking 200m for no good reason.

There is no justification for this incredibly dumb stop location. Making a horrible 200m transfer at a corridor where there are two important bus connections today and is literally planned to become a major transfer point to other BRT services in the future is completely asinine. It’s almost like if we deleted Warden/Golden Mile station on ECLRT and saying “yeah but you can get off at Hakimi-Lebovic.”

I suspect the reason is because there’s no space in the current ROW to widen the road north of Major Mack, and the government doesn’t have the guts to expropriate a few properties and would rather have transferring transit users walk 200m for no reason since NIMBYs will go crazy and transit is for poor people and broke students anyways. I mean, what can you expect from York Region... (Slightly joking, but seriously, this is horrible)
 

Leo_Chan

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That sounds like an easy way to have everyone in Richmond Hill turn against you and tear you to shreds. I feel like the reason why the stop is built as it is is because I think they want to leave room for a potential underground tunnel under Richmond Hill Centre. A lot of older renders seem to consider this as a possibility:
View attachment 301240
I don't think the suggestion is that controversial. It's not like I'm suggesting to remove left turns from the entire corridor and require U-turns.

I always thought that render was of Yonge and Highway 7, not Major Mackenzie.
 

ARG1

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I don't think the suggestion is that controversial. It's not like I'm suggesting to remove left turns from the entire corridor and require U-turns.

I always thought that render was of Yonge and Highway 7, not Major Mackenzie.
Well first, Highway 7 and Yonge don't ever directly intersect, but 2nd in the original document its from, I believe its labelled as "Yonge Street Facing North". The rapidway terminates at RHC, so this can't be viewing south of Highway 7 since the expectation is that south of Highway 7, rapid transit will be service by Yonge North. The only other logical place this could be is Major Mackenzie as a way to go under downtown Richmond Hill.
 

micheal_can

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That sounds like an easy way to have everyone in Richmond Hill turn against you and tear you to shreds. I feel like the reason why the stop is built as it is is because I think they want to leave room for a potential underground tunnel under Richmond Hill Centre. A lot of older renders seem to consider this as a possibility:
View attachment 301240

Let's hope that when they build a tunnel it is for an LRT, bit BRT. Otherwise you will end up wiht he mess Ottawa has as they convert their Transitways.
 

ARG1

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Yeah no. That was a complete joke, even more so than Brampton’s laughable LRT tunnel. And besides, even if a tunnel were to be built in 30 years, moving a stop like that is basically a nothing cost in a ~1.3 km tunnel project. And in the meantime, every single person who transfers at that intersection has to waste 5 mins walking 200m for no good reason.

There is no justification for this incredibly dumb stop location. Making a horrible 200m transfer at a corridor where there are two important bus connections today and is literally planned to become a major transfer point to other BRT services in the future is completely asinine. It’s almost like if we deleted Warden/Golden Mile station on ECLRT and saying “yeah but you can get off at Hakimi-Lebovic.”

I suspect the reason is because there’s no space in the current ROW to widen the road north of Major Mack, and the government doesn’t have the guts to expropriate a few properties and would rather have transferring transit users walk 200m for no reason since NIMBYs will go crazy and transit is for poor people and broke students anyways. I mean, what can you expect from York Region... (Slightly joking, but seriously, this is horrible)
The problem is that because the area north of Major Mackenzie is part of the historic downtown, expropriation might be nigh impossible due to the heritage status and the buildings being labelled historic. Regardless, there is no way any government in their right mind could get away with expropriating all of this:
 

Haydenpoon

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Well first, Highway 7 and Yonge don't ever directly intersect, but 2nd in the original document its from, I believe its labelled as "Yonge Street Facing North". The rapidway terminates at RHC, so this can't be viewing south of Highway 7 since the expectation is that south of Highway 7, rapid transit will be service by Yonge North. The only other logical place this could be is Major Mackenzie as a way to go under downtown Richmond Hill.
Well, that tunnel entrance is probably not on Highway 7 nor Yonge, but on the connector between them. (p.105 of the Yonge Subway Extension Conceptual Design Report)
Screen Shot 2021-02-22 at 9.54.15 AM.png
 

drum118

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When the Big Move was being prepare to be written, various meetings where held around the GTA for members of levels of local governments' at different time. I was asked to set in to help a few areas and one of them was Richmond Hill and the other was Markham.

At one meeting while sitting with the RH folks, we got taking about what RH wanted and looking down the road at that we talked about Yonge St. The RH folks saw a tunnel going under the Town downtown starting around Major Mack to the south and ending north at a number of locations for BRT that could be upgraded to LRT at some future date back in 2007/8.

They saw the need only for an BRT on Yonge and Major Mack as well not seeing a subway from Toronto. The region on the other hand saw a subway. RH saw more bus routes with beef up service and express service.

We looked at various things pertaining to RH downtown and it was quite clear it was a major pinching point for everyone that servicing transit would take a major hit down the road and why there was a need for a tunnel under it. There was a mix view about the tunnel as some saw it only for transit while others wanted a mix tunnel to carry through traffic to reduce the traffic to more local needs. In the end, the recommendation was for an BRT/LRT tunnel along with various transit improvements.

Markham was pushing for LRT highway 7 as well to Mississauga by 2 different routes with one connecting to Mississauga Transitway. Markham was very split on what it saw for its needs, but did accept the highway 7 BRT plan that could be upgraded to LRT at some future date. They also supported the subway into York Region from Toronto to help cover the cost of building things in York Region since they could cover the cost of building things down the road.

My view for a mix tunnel that it would have to be 4/6 lane wide and very deep to get under all the structures that it has legs, but need to be wider for stations.
 
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ARG1

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When the Big Move was being prepare to be written, various meetings where held around the GTA for members of levels of local governments' at different time. I was asked to set in to help a few areas and one of them was Richmond Hill and the other was Markham.

At one meeting while sitting with the RH folks, we got taking about what RH wanted and looking down the road at that we talked about Yonge St. The RH folks saw a tunnel going under the Town downtown starting around Major Mack to the south and ending north at a number of locations for BRT that could be upgraded to LRT at some future date back in 2007/8.

They saw the need only for an BRT on Yonge and Major Mack as well not seeing a subway from Toronto. The region on the other hand saw a subway. RH saw more bus routes with beef up service and express service.

We looked at various things pertaining to RH downtown and it was quite clear it was a major pinching point for everyone that servicing transit would take a major hit down the road and why there was a need for a tunnel under it. There was a mix view about the tunnel as some saw it only for transit while others wanted a mix tunnel to carry through traffic to reduce the traffic to more local needs. In the end, the recommendation was for an BRT/LRT tunnel along with various transit improvements.

Markham was pushing for LRT highway 7 as well to Mississauga by 2 different routes with one connecting to Mississauga Transitway. Markham was very split on what it saw for its needs, but did accept the highway 7 BRT plan that could be upgraded to LRT at some future date. They also supported the subway into York Region from Toronto to help cover the cost of building things in York Region since they could cover the cost of building things down the road.

My view for a mix tunnel that it would have to be 4/6 lane wide and very deep to get under all the structures that it has legs, but need to be wider for stations.
Interesting to read.

At least in the current state though, is a tunnel under downtown a future possibility or is it not being discussed at all?
 

drum118

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Interesting to read.

At least in the current state though, is a tunnel under downtown a future possibility or is it not being discussed at all?
The idea of the tunnel was around long before the Big Move. I have no idea where the idea of the tunnel is at this time as it out of my area these days. From a transit point, it needs to happen.
 

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