York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[smallspy]

TTC does charge higher fares to service outside because it's costs more to run the warden and bathhurst buses to major mac. Both the TTC and YRT need help!

No, the TTC charges higher fares outside Toronto because those routes are not subsidized by Toronto but rather by York Region/YRT. Despite the colours on the buses, they are for all intents and purposes YRT buses. It has nothing at all to do with the direct costs of operating that route, as the TTC wouldn't run it if they didn't get the funding from YRT for them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Bunching is also a result of routes that are long distances. There is greater opportunity to fall behind and fewer opportunities to get caught up (by departing a terminal early for example). Off hand I think the routes that suffer the most severe congestion are the E-W routes which travel the longest distances between termini.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, the TTC charges higher fares outside Toronto because those routes are not subsidized by Toronto but rather by York Region/YRT. Despite the colours on the buses, they are for all intents and purposes YRT buses. It has nothing at all to do with the direct costs of operating that route, as the TTC wouldn't run it if they didn't get the funding from YRT for them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I had no idea they got a subsidy from YRT. I always assume it was because it made no sense to stop at steeles.

 

[Electrify]

On a lighter note, it is nice to see routes with under 20 minute frequencies. I remember when the Yonge C bus ran every 15 minutes +-5 minutes. Gives me hope that within a few years, some of these routes will be under 10 minutes, providing enough service that one does not need to conform to a schedule.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I had no idea they got a subsidy from YRT. I always assume it was because it made no sense to stop at steeles.

No, it's not even really a subsidy. The best metaphor would be that YRT is effectively renting them out for those few kilometres. The TTC wouldn't cross Steeles, not even for a "subsidy." They couldn't care less if 50% or 60% or 95% of the riders on a given route (say, Steeles East) are actually coming from the north side of the road. They'll take the fare they get, say "thank you very much," and not give a crap how those people are getting to Steeles. Bike, walk, pay a $4 fare to ride 1km, get a lift - not our problem. Outside 416, might as well be other side of the moon.

If you think the TTC brings their buses to "where it makes sense," you're giving them a lot of credit; don't even get me started on the Yonge subway extension thread. The TTC DOES NOT CARE where their riders are coming from or going to; they care about moving rolling stock across the 416.

This isn't TTC-bashing, it's a reality. I'm someone who wants them to succeed and be the leaders they once were. Read Taal's quote on the previous page; that's the kind of stuff I hear about them all the time. I've never heard anyone talk about how forward-thinking and ambitious they are. Again - I point you to the tokens they were forced to give up with an $8-billion gun to their heads. It was revolutionary when Andy Byford came in and said, "Really, people shouldn't be scared to death of taking a piss in our bathrooms," and, "If the trains are delayed, we should give at least a vague explanation of why over the PA..." Such great leaps into the new millennium!

Because of their budget and political context, I understand why they have blinders on, to an extent. But it's hugely counterproductive for the most important transit agency in the region to be so narrow-minded and it's hurting everyone else. I'm not talking about uploading, because I'm not a governance expert, but it should be pretty obvious, looking at YRT's issues, that a proper regional transit authority is a necessity if these issues are ever to be resolved or at least mitigated.

 

[nfitz]

Bunching is just a reality of extremely busy and frequent surface routes.

It is a reality. But isn't just a reality.

TTC line management can be awful. I've stood at Liberty and Dufferin late at night with little car traffic, fully aware there are 5 Dufferin buses sat at the loop for 10 minutes, and then watched then come out of the loop in a pack of 5, with Nextbus showing the first one is 14 minutes late, and the last one is 6 minutes EARLY.

It's not just busy roads and frequent routes. Some of it is gross incompetence.

Mississauga has the same problem along Dundas and Hurontario.

How much does Hurontario 19 bunch at 11 pm on a weekday when there is no congestion on Hurontario?[/QUOTE]

 

[taal]

Like Doady said bunching is just reality. I think that the TTC needs to improve being on time and introduce wifi/internet on the RT. Comfort improvements cost little and would bring up the image of the TTC.

This is so far from the truth .. of course some bunching during rush hour is expected, but when you see 10 / 15 + min routes bunching what excuse will you buy from the TTC ? There is none, and it happens a regular basis.
Viva blu does a very decent job of keeping their sub 8min line (during rush hour) ruining with little to no bunching ..

There is absolutely no excuse I'll buy, its just extremely poor line management and bus drivers that just don't care, at all ..


I've heard all sort of explanations, and all are just utter BS ... most stem from the fact the bus drivers are used to the current system, or the TTC doesn't have enough line mangers ... I don't even by this, on routes they've employed extra line management personal they seem to manage to accomplish and even more terrible job (the Queen streetcar being a good example). Read some of Steve Munro's post on the matter, you don't have to share his opinions, many of these posts are simply posting the statistics, which show just how official things are ...

I wish someone would run on the platform of completely overhauling the TTC ... yes the funding they get is terrible ... but what's even worse is how the lines are managed. Throwing extra buses on routes will do nothing if they come in giant packs.

There are already terrible reports of how the articulated buses have performed.

I don't think there is a worse system in North America ... of course I have no idea ... but that's just how infuriating a topic this is. I've had discussion with bus drivers about the matter, there was one that admitted the problem and said it was a cultural issue, and drivers just stick to their schedules and don't want to be told anything else ..

Simply put, the TTC sucks ... in this regard.

 

[smallspy]

I had no idea they got a subsidy from YRT. I always assume it was because it made no sense to stop at steeles.

It doesn't make sense to stop at Steeles - that's why YRT pays to have the TTC continue those routes north. But the routes would never meet the financial threshold for TTC service, and that's why they are paid for by York Region.

No, it's not even really a subsidy. The best metaphor would be that YRT is effectively renting them out for those few kilometres. The TTC wouldn't cross Steeles, not even for a "subsidy." They couldn't care less if 50% or 60% or 95% of the riders on a given route (say, Steeles East) are actually coming from the north side of the road. They'll take the fare they get, say "thank you very much," and not give a crap how those people are getting to Steeles. Bike, walk, pay a $4 fare to ride 1km, get a lift - not our problem. Outside 416, might as well be other side of the moon.

That's not true at all. The TTC has run routes outside of their fare boundaries where it makes sense to - the recently-terminated loop of the 53 on Elson is proof-positive of that, and in the past the TTC has run routes out to Port Credit and the CNR yard in Concord when there were no neighbouring transit services to connect to. (Of course, that hasn't been the case for 25 years now.) Hell, the 32A service runs into Mississauga without payment from Mississauga Transit - it was only when the line got extended further as the 32B about 12 years ago (and then got cut back again in 2010) that the TTC received a subsidy for it.

If you think the TTC brings their buses to "where it makes sense," you're giving them a lot of credit; don't even get me started on the Yonge subway extension thread. The TTC DOES NOT CARE where their riders are coming from or going to; they care about moving rolling stock across the 416.

That's an awfully simplistic and dumbed-down version of it - it's way more complicated than that, and you know that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

That's an awfully simplistic and dumbed-down version of it - it's way more complicated than that, and you know that.

Yeah, it's simplifying. As I said, I understand why TTC operates under some severe constraints. I still find their thinking extremely parochial and, to be fair, that's a 416 problem, generally. Just look at all the current mayoral candidates devising ad hoc transit plans, as if there isn't already a regional plan in effect. Tory has come the closest to acknowledging a world beyond the city borders; I think he genuinely gets the regional issues at play but no one wants to get into that in a Toronto mayoralty campaign. And, again, I understand that to an extent.

So - it makes sense for a single bus (or subway) to carry transit riders across a municipal border, to where they're going. But it doesn't make sense for Toronto taxpayers to fund buses (or subways) into other municipalities. Seems to me the obvious way to resolve this is some sort of regional transit integration. It has to be fair to Toronto, but the TTC does need to wise up about its role in the larger region. Simplifications aside, I do genuinely believe that.

And, to conclude back on thread, until that happens YRT will always be in a very tricky situation. The current routings/borders make it difficult for their riders in the urbanized south who are needed to subsidize the rural north. I certainly don't blame TTC for that but our growth has outpaced our governance models and it's time to play catch-up.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yeah, it's simplifying. As I said, I understand why TTC operates under some severe constraints. I still find their thinking extremely parochial and, to be fair, that's a 416 problem, generally. Just look at all the current mayoral candidates devising ad hoc transit plans, as if there isn't already a regional plan in effect. Tory has come the closest to acknowledging a world beyond the city borders; I think he genuinely gets the regional issues at play but no one wants to get into that in a Toronto mayoralty campaign. And, again, I understand that to an extent.

So - it makes sense for a single bus (or subway) to carry transit riders across a municipal border, to where they're going. But it doesn't make sense for Toronto taxpayers to fund buses (or subways) into other municipalities. Seems to me the obvious way to resolve this is some sort of regional transit integration. It has to be fair to Toronto, but the TTC does need to wise up about its role in the larger region. Simplifications aside, I do genuinely believe that.

And, to conclude back on thread, until that happens YRT will always be in a very tricky situation. The current routings/borders make it difficult for their riders in the urbanized south who are needed to subsidize the rural north. I certainly don't blame TTC for that but our growth has outpaced our governance models and it's time to play catch-up.

What is the TTC supposed to do? Their mandate is supposed to serve the citizens of Toronto proper. IF YRT wanted to cover Weston, Bathurst, Markham Road, etc they could but they choose not to. Your bashing the TTC for ahearing to its mandate while saying YRT is in a tricky situation while only slightly acknowledging that the TTC is having a different version of the same problem.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What is the TTC supposed to do? Their mandate is supposed to serve the citizens of Toronto proper. IF YRT wanted to cover Weston, Bathurst, Markham Road, etc they could but they choose not to. Your bashing the TTC for ahearing to its mandate while saying YRT is in a tricky situation while only slightly acknowledging that the TTC is having a different version of the same problem.

Oh, I totally acknowledge it's the same problem at the end there, don't I? It's a regional governance issue, not a TTC issue (or a YRT issue), per se. But this is a YRT thread....

I think the TTC and YRT each have their own internal issues, no doubt. But at a broader scale, most of what we're talking about here has to do with the larger system. I understand why TTC doesn't want to be uploaded to the province, for example, but I also found myself at Yonge/Steeles at a red light last week and watched 9 buses cross the border before my light changed. Everyone is too concerned with their own problems to address the actual issues commuters are facing. I don't think most riders care what colour the bus they're boarding is as long as it gets them from A to B.

I'm happy I don't work at TTC, trying to deal with all they deal with without provincial operating funding etc. and I'm equally happy I don't work at YRT, trying to figure out how often some bus should run in Georgina while council is demanding 50/50, while riders are bitching about $4 fares.

The whole darned thing needs a redrawing and I feel like if you can get Steeles right, lot of the rest will fall into place.

 

[Electrify]

One benefit to southern York Region riders that regularly cross borders is that they can get the GTA weekly pass. For less than the weekly price of tokens and tickets/Presto, they get unlimited travel in both zones. While still sucky, considering that it is not much more than the TTC weekly pass ($39.25 vs $56, or $16.75 extra), it is not a bad deal.

 

[smallspy]

Yeah, it's simplifying. As I said, I understand why TTC operates under some severe constraints. I still find their thinking extremely parochial and, to be fair, that's a 416 problem, generally. Just look at all the current mayoral candidates devising ad hoc transit plans, as if there isn't already a regional plan in effect. Tory has come the closest to acknowledging a world beyond the city borders; I think he genuinely gets the regional issues at play but no one wants to get into that in a Toronto mayoralty campaign. And, again, I understand that to an extent.

So - it makes sense for a single bus (or subway) to carry transit riders across a municipal border, to where they're going. But it doesn't make sense for Toronto taxpayers to fund buses (or subways) into other municipalities. Seems to me the obvious way to resolve this is some sort of regional transit integration. It has to be fair to Toronto, but the TTC does need to wise up about its role in the larger region. Simplifications aside, I do genuinely believe that.

And, to conclude back on thread, until that happens YRT will always be in a very tricky situation. The current routings/borders make it difficult for their riders in the urbanized south who are needed to subsidize the rural north. I certainly don't blame TTC for that but our growth has outpaced our governance models and it's time to play catch-up.

Last time I checked, no one who has a residence in the 905 either pays property tax to Toronto nor votes for any of the Toronto mayors.

So of course they aren't going to suggest any region-wide transit solutions, and of course the TTC isn't going to provide service outside of the 416 if it isn't going to at least cover its costs.

To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that the future Premier of the Province should work on improving the municipal water infrastructure in Alberta or Nova Scotia - it is outside of their purview and scope, and so they aren't going to get involved.

Should the governance models be updated? Maybe....but maybe not. We have an operation who is in charge (theoretically at least) of region-wide transportation issues. How about we let them do their job?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

Last time I checked, no one who has a residence in the 905 either pays property tax to Toronto nor votes for any of the Toronto mayors.

Since when? If someone has a residence in 905, it doesn't get them out of paying tax on any property they own in Toronto. So why wouldn't they vote?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Last time I checked, no one who has a residence in the 905 either pays property tax to Toronto nor votes for any of the Toronto mayors.

So of course they aren't going to suggest any region-wide transit solutions, and of course the TTC isn't going to provide service outside of the 416 if it isn't going to at least cover its costs.

To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that the future Premier of the Province should work on improving the municipal water infrastructure in Alberta or Nova Scotia - it is outside of their purview and scope, and so they aren't going to get involved.

Should the governance models be updated? Maybe....but maybe not. We have an operation who is in charge (theoretically at least) of region-wide transportation issues. How about we let them do their job?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

This is how I feel reading Steve Munro. You're so stuck in WHAT IS and HOW THINGS ARE that you are unable to perceive where the problems lie or see the way through them. In case it wasn't stunningly obvious to anyone who lives in the GTA, I already acknowledged that people in the 905 obviously pay taxes in the 905 and people in the 416 pay taxes there so, as you say, of course everyone is stuck covering their own ass.

But that's the entirety of the problem! Your premier example is stunningly off, with all due respect, because people in Alberta and Nova Scotia don't use the same water but a person can live in Markham and work in Mississauga and then go to a Blue Jays game in Toronto all in one day. (And it's equally possible a Toronto resident would work in Markham, for that matter.) But you're so hung up on describing where taxes go and who votes for who that taking a step back and recognizing the obsolescence of those concepts is just beyond the pale. Moreover, if all the provinces somehow did share water, the federal government would be in charge of it because, at least in theory, you want to SCALE GOVERNMENT TO THE PROBLEM. Certainly Nova Scotia and Alberta send all their would-be soldiers into the same army, don't they?

And so, for the third or fourth time, our transportation issues exceed the current scale of government. You say there is "an operation" in charge of region-wide transportation issues, by which I assume you mean Metrolinx. But they are an AGENCY, not an AUTHORITY, which is really the entirety of my point. Why should I "let them do their job" when they have neither the money nor the legislative authority to do what I think we both agree that job should be?

To reiterate: people travel across borders all the time but there is no body with any authority that operates at a scale to confront that issue and so long as that persists, local transit agencies will be too concerned with serving their purported taxpayers to deal with the actual needs of riders who may or may not be their taxpayers (though I could counter that a Markham resident who comes to Toronto every day may not be a "taxpayer" or voter in your definition but they pay a TTC fare and probably by lunch and do a bunch of other things that drive Toronto's economy). TTC isn't going to solve York Region riders' problems and YRT won't be able to achieve certain of their goals either, so long as they operate largely at cross-purposes (or, at best, roughly in conjunction but not properly integrated). So while you're defending TTC's turf vs. YRT's in logical terms, it doesn't do much for a human being who requires use of both services.

Have I been clearer this time, Dan?