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York Region Transit: Viva service thread

Since when? If someone has a residence in 905, it doesn't get them out of paying tax on any property they own in Toronto. So why wouldn't they vote?
And how many people have two house when most cannot afford one?
Last time I checked, no one who has a residence in the 905 either pays property tax to Toronto nor votes for any of the Toronto mayors.

So of course they aren't going to suggest any region-wide transit solutions, and of course the TTC isn't going to provide service outside of the 416 if it isn't going to at least cover its costs.

To suggest otherwise would be to suggest that the future Premier of the Province should work on improving the municipal water infrastructure in Alberta or Nova Scotia - it is outside of their purview and scope, and so they aren't going to get involved.

Should the governance models be updated? Maybe....but maybe not. We have an operation who is in charge (theoretically at least) of region-wide transportation issues. How about we let them do their job?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

This is how I feel reading Steve Munro. You're so stuck in WHAT IS and HOW THINGS ARE that you are unable to perceive where the problems lie or see the way through them. In case it wasn't stunningly obvious to anyone who lives in the GTA, I already acknowledged that people in the 905 obviously pay taxes in the 905 and people in the 416 pay taxes there so, as you say, of course everyone is stuck covering their own ass.

But that's the entirety of the problem! Your premier example is stunningly off, with all due respect, because people in Alberta and Nova Scotia don't use the same water but a person can live in Markham and work in Mississauga and then go to a Blue Jays game in Toronto all in one day. (And it's equally possible a Toronto resident would work in Markham, for that matter.) But you're so hung up on describing where taxes go and who votes for who that taking a step back and recognizing the obsolescence of those concepts is just beyond the pale. Moreover, if all the provinces somehow did share water, the federal government would be in charge of it because, at least in theory, you want to SCALE GOVERNMENT TO THE PROBLEM. Certainly Nova Scotia and Alberta send all their would-be soldiers into the same army, don't they?

And so, for the third or fourth time, our transportation issues exceed the current scale of government. You say there is "an operation" in charge of region-wide transportation issues, by which I assume you mean Metrolinx. But they are an AGENCY, not an AUTHORITY, which is really the entirety of my point. Why should I "let them do their job" when they have neither the money nor the legislative authority to do what I think we both agree that job should be?

To reiterate: people travel across borders all the time but there is no body with any authority that operates at a scale to confront that issue and so long as that persists, local transit agencies will be too concerned with serving their purported taxpayers to deal with the actual needs of riders who may or may not be their taxpayers (though I could counter that a Markham resident who comes to Toronto every day may not be a "taxpayer" or voter in your definition but they pay a TTC fare and probably by lunch and do a bunch of other things that drive Toronto's economy). TTC isn't going to solve York Region riders' problems and YRT won't be able to achieve certain of their goals either, so long as they operate largely at cross-purposes (or, at best, roughly in conjunction but not properly integrated). So while you're defending TTC's turf vs. YRT's in logical terms, it doesn't do much for a human being who requires use of both services.

Have I been clearer this time, Dan?

The provinces actually do share water, because of lakes and rivers. Regardless, because of politics Metrolinx has not really been able to get this done.
 
And how many people have two house when most cannot afford one?

The provinces actually do share water, because of lakes and rivers. Regardless, because of politics Metrolinx has not really been able to get this done.

Yes, obviously. His example was Alberta & Nova Scotia so, whether he meant it literally or not, I ran with the fact they are non-contiguous. When governments do have common interests, they (in theory) work together. I don't get the sense TTC does much to actually work with adjacent municipalities and while Smallspy can tout their renting buses out to York Region or point out (rightly, to an extent) that it's not TORONTO's job to worry about people outside Toronto, my entire point is that sort of apparently justifiable narrow-mindedness is dragging us into a quagmire that only a regional body (be it Metrolinx 3.0 or who knows what) can fix. The TTC and YRT are never going to solve the Steeles boundary issue because it is inherently unsolvable as long as TTC's concern stops at a finite point in space and YRT is concerned with how to fund some route up in Georgina etc. etc. etc.
 
I'd think many people in this situation would be business owners in 416, who live in 905.

But why does it matter how many? smallspy said there was no one. Clearly there are some.

It matters because you are detracting from the main issue on purpose.

Yes, obviously. His example was Alberta & Nova Scotia so, whether he meant it literally or not, I ran with the fact they are non-contiguous. When governments do have common interests, they (in theory) work together. I don't get the sense TTC does much to actually work with adjacent municipalities and while Smallspy can tout their renting buses out to York Region or point out (rightly, to an extent) that it's not TORONTO's job to worry about people outside Toronto, my entire point is that sort of apparently justifiable narrow-mindedness is dragging us into a quagmire that only a regional body (be it Metrolinx 3.0 or who knows what) can fix. The TTC and YRT are never going to solve the Steeles boundary issue because it is inherently unsolvable as long as TTC's concern stops at a finite point in space and YRT is concerned with how to fund some route up in Georgina etc. etc. etc.

Fair enough.
 
I really think we have too many transit agencies, and every one of them is too parochial. Ultimately, TTC, Metrolinx, MT, BT, YRT and DRT should all be merged. They should have taxation abilities. And be free from too much political meddling (how, I'm not sure).
 
I really think we have too many transit agencies, and every one of them is too parochial. Ultimately, TTC, Metrolinx, MT, BT, YRT and DRT should all be merged. They should have taxation abilities. And be free from too much political meddling (how, I'm not sure).

There is a risk in swinging the other way. The Toronto Harbour Commission/Port Authority was given free reign over the planning of the waterfront for most of the 20th century and the result was a disaster. I could imagine a politically-isolated transit authority causing a lot of problems as well.
 
It matters because you are detracting from the main issue on purpose.
I have no idea what the main issue is beyond YRT service. I have no idea why anyone is talking about Nova Scotia. I simply pointed out the fallacy in smallspy's statement. How his statement had anything to do with YRT service in the first place remains beyond me.
 
There is a risk in swinging the other way. The Toronto Harbour Commission/Port Authority was given free reign over the planning of the waterfront for most of the 20th century and the result was a disaster. I could imagine a politically-isolated transit authority causing a lot of problems as well.

How was it a disaster? For much of the 20th century, it was common to use the waterfront for industrial purposes.
 
The provinces actually do share water, because of lakes and rivers. Regardless, because of politics Metrolinx has not really been able to get this done.

I think his point was water in the sense of the delivery system for tap water, waste water removal/disposal, and water purification. No body is going to lay pipes to deliver water from Alberta to Nova Scotia or vice versa; and while we could delve into an excessively scientific discussion of the water cycle and how water moves across the planet and how water used in Alberta eventually becomes water used in Nova Scotia and therefore we are all using the same water. That cycle is far to lengthy for the purposes of the discussion, namely accessing, treating, and delivering water for use by the public.

To bring it back around to his forest from the trees argument. Nobody expects 416 or 905 tax dollars to go towards transit systems in Ottawa or Kingston or what ever, but when our region is so integrated as it is sometimes having a hard barrier between one municipality and the other is backwards.

*Note* And for what it's worth I am pretty sure Toronto and the other municipalities do share water infrastructure for simply that reason. Toronto has access to a vast water resource in Lake Ontario and so York region taps into some of that water rather that piping water South from Lake Simcoe. Economy of scale.
 
I really think we have too many transit agencies, and every one of them is too parochial. Ultimately, TTC, Metrolinx, MT, BT, YRT and DRT should all be merged. They should have taxation abilities. And be free from too much political meddling (how, I'm not sure).

Yes, this.

If we're going to use water as a metaphor, I have an easy one for you: The TRCA.

I think we would all agree (?) that it would be idiotic and counter-productive if municipalities were allowed to manage the rivers/ravines on their own as any efforts York Region made to clean up the Don (for example) would be undermined by Toronto's lack of same downstream (or vice versa). The watershed must be managed as a whole and it is; the scale is matched to the problem. If we didn't have the TRCA (and its counterparts across the province), I suspect we'd have precisely the same sort of border issues cropping up at places like Steeles Avenue we now have with transit. And there would be people like Steve Munro who know all there is to know about pipes and capacities and flows, complaining about how poorly the city manages its own pipes, even building pointless pipes into Markham and Vaughan etc. etc. But, thankfully, that's not the case.

But the commutershed is managed totally differently. Here we (apparently) think it's perfectly sensible that Toronto should only be concerned with the proverbial water within its borders, even though we all totally understand that it's the exact same "water" coming from Barrie and Markham and Oakville etc. etc. Some people seem to think that is totally sensible because if you live in Toronto and your taxes go to TTC, it's not your problem whether people "flow" beyond the 416 border. So, the point isn't that you're right in your protectionism but that the way we fund and govern transit has to be done differently. If you start thinking that way, you can start thinking differently about where subways should naturally go, how to manage bus lines along a road that happens to be a municipal border, how to properly balance serving local/region service and urban/suburban/rural service etc. If you keep fixating on borders, you'll keep repeating the same mistakes because people don't respect lines we've drawn on a map any more than water does.
 
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I think his point was water in the sense of the delivery system for tap water, waste water removal/disposal, and water purification. No body is going to lay pipes to deliver water from Alberta to Nova Scotia or vice versa; and while we could delve into an excessively scientific discussion of the water cycle and how water moves across the planet and how water used in Alberta eventually becomes water used in Nova Scotia and therefore we are all using the same water. That cycle is far to lengthy for the purposes of the discussion, namely accessing, treating, and delivering water for use by the public.

To bring it back around to his forest from the trees argument. Nobody expects 416 or 905 tax dollars to go towards transit systems in Ottawa or Kingston or what ever, but when our region is so integrated as it is sometimes having a hard barrier between one municipality and the other is backwards.

*Note* And for what it's worth I am pretty sure Toronto and the other municipalities do share water infrastructure for simply that reason. Toronto has access to a vast water resource in Lake Ontario and so York region taps into some of that water rather that piping water South from Lake Simcoe. Economy of scale.

I don't disagree for a second with this. I would like to see Toronto get a chance to sort out some of its issues first before integration. I would like to see metrolinx get more power too.
 
ugh...I'm so tired of saying this but it needs to be said for what is probably the 1000th time in the UT forums if not more....

Toronto pays the lowest property taxes compared to their suburban counterparts so this whole "you guys don't pay taxes in 416" argument is laughable as if we don't pay anything in the suburbs, as if we, because we own a detached house or live a few clicks outside of the 416, don't know the value of money.

It's hard to believe that there's this whole sentiment going around. last time I checked, I worked in downtown Toronto and lived in Thornhill. Do I pay property taxes in Toronto? No, ofcourse not. But you know what's funny? Businesses in Toronto DO pay taxes and they seem to think my 905 money is good enough for them when I purchase thousands of dollars worth of products over the year. I probably SPEND more money in Toronto than in the 905, keeping more business open and paying taxes in Toronto. This flow of money into the City certainly has to help pay for the TTC somehow no? Certainly someone from the 905 who pays their fair share for a TTC metropass and tokens is helping to offload the burden of just having the Toronto population support the system right?

This whole argument is so dumb it actually feels insulting to have to read it on a forum that has so many bright people. If there's anything I've learned through my planning experience and general observations on here and in other places, it's that nearly nothing is purely black or white when it comes to transportation trends and planning. To say that the TTC's mandate is to serve the 416 first and foremost is the most apparent reason given in this thread that the planning we've been doing and are currently doing is wrong. Putting up arbitrary boundaries on transportation when our reality is anything but confined to those antiquated lines on a map. It's a ridiculous notion that needs to be put behind. The fact of the matter is that Toronto is an enormous jobs centre where it MUST rely on a workforce not just from within but outside of the 416 to thrive.

Gosh this whole 416/905 mentality that people have is a serious hold-back, and what's worse is that there's a complete entitlement issue with some people thinking that THEY are the only ones paying for transit.
 
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Gosh this whole 416/905 mentality that people have is a serious hold-back, and what's worse is that there's a complete entitlement issue with some people thinking that THEY are the only ones paying for transit.

I agree with everything you said. There are so many smart people on these threads who genuinely care about these issues that I'm often stunned when I run against this kind of contrary mentality. If there's anywhere the 416/905 "divide" should be regarded as the crap that it is (to say nothing of the "Old Toronto" vs "suburbs, within the 416!) it should be here.

They're not going to remerge the area codes so I don't know how we get out of this mental jail some people have created. Metrolinx has the potential to be something akin to regional governance but they're not there yet so it's probably too much to think they can carry the burden of waving a flag around which the whole GTA can rally but, really, some of us need to get our heads out of our asses and think bigger and better.

I've lived almost my whole life in either Thornhill or northern North York so maybe you need to live right by the border to appreciate how absurd it is, and how absurd these other "boundaries" are - but it is and they are and it has to change if the region's going to take itself to the next level and not collapse under its own weight.
 
^
Is that adjusted for lot size? AKA the amount of actual property you own.



I wasn't aware the TRCA added billions in debt to the Toronto taxpayer's ledger.

(roll my eyes)

I think you're thinking of the subway Toronto council just approved?

The TRCA is funded regionally, because it is regional in scope. Transit should be funded regionally, because it is regional in scope. Got it?
 

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