York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[taal]

But a point ... do you all really think the fair increase is a big factor ? I don't think that's really the case, service on many feeder routes was cut, I think that's a big factor.
The drop of blue is a big suprise, as more condos along Yonge have been going into occupancy this year ..

 

[Electrify]

If I recall from my internship at CUTA, a lot of systems across the country were seeing a loss in ridership in 2013. Obviously the TTC bucked the trend, but I can't remember how other GTA systems performed.

 

[taal]

If I recall from my internship at CUTA, a lot of systems across the country were seeing a loss in ridership in 2013. Obviously the TTC bucked the trend, but I can't remember how other GTA systems performed.

But we're talking about 2014 ... and if ridership was down in 2013, its even worse now given the % .. I really wouldn't imagine transit use should show much correlation throughout a country, there are so many different factors. Employment in most of the 905 has been stable and growing in some areas, if anything the city of Toronto is what typically remains flat in terms of employment, with exceptions in some areas, namely the core (the city is flat as the core's growth is offset by losses in just about the rest of 416) but transit use in the core is so high (to the core I should say) and that probably explains why the TTC does well.

Whereas with the suburbs, Markham even more so then say Missiaga, new employment along major transit routes probably results in very very few additional trips, just given how low transit use is, I've seen stats for offices along Hi-way 7, and its extermely low .. actually .. the very little transit use that exists (again this is a generlization, but holds true in general) is usually explains by 'interns' many of the large companies along 7 employ.

Maybe there will be hope in say 5/10 years if more new empoyees chose to live in the new condos being built along 7 ... take uptown markham as a good example

 

[taal]

Here's the problem, you can build communities with decent walkability, which uptown / downtown markham are doing but that doesn't really encourage transit use outside this very small node ... this is really takes a mind-shift in the folks that reside in the area, I don't think you'll see this for at least 10/20+ years ... most people I know moving into these areas, have cars and use them all the time, keep in mind most of the businesses along 7 are highly white collar (i.e. high pay jobs).

In the core, there is this sense that 'driving sucks' ... because its so crowded, which I find ironic because, with some exceptions (i.e. a couple small sections of streets leading to on ramps), I find traffic worse in the 905 then downtown Toronto.

One thing companies can do (but don't and won't) is start charging a lot for parking (charging their employeers).

 

[ShonTron]

If I recall from my internship at CUTA, a lot of systems across the country were seeing a loss in ridership in 2013. Obviously the TTC bucked the trend, but I can't remember how other GTA systems performed.

Brampton's ridership is still improving, but at a slower rate than previous years (only +5.7% in 2013):
http://www.brampton.ca/EN/residents/transit/facts-figures/Pages/RidershipStats.aspx

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will be a band aid and ridership on YRT will stagnate again after a year when it opens. They need to cut the fare back to $3.25.

 

[smallspy]

The Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will be a band aid and ridership on YRT will stagnate again after a year when it opens. They need to cut the fare back to $3.25.

A fare cut is not going to do anyone any good if they are still going to be waiting 47 minutes for their next bus.

Improvements in service quality go far, far further in terms of bringing in ridership (or in this case, stopping its decline) than decreases in the fare.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BMO]

But a point ... do you all really think the fair increase is a big factor ? I don't think that's really the case, service on many feeder routes was cut, I think that's a big factor.
The drop of blue is a big suprise, as more condos along Yonge have been going into occupancy this year ..

Pink takes riders away from the Blue line especially south of HWY 7. Without proper ridership data I can't come to a complete conclusion, but I know there is a large portion of people who just take any bus that comes first south of Hwy 7. If Pink has seen an increase and blue has seen a drop it could simply be a matter or ridership allocation.

 

[BMO]

The Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will be a band aid and ridership on YRT will stagnate again after a year when it opens. They need to cut the fare back to $3.25.

Tell your councillor. The only reason the fare is so high is because those same councillors tell YRT they need to achieve a 50/50 farebox recovery ratio while also forcing YRT to service areas like Peferlaw and King City, which only serves 5-6 people per peak period. When you factor in the amount of gas required to fill up that bus as well as the deahead trips that are considerably long to the yard as well as the driver's wages you'll soon realize that YRT is being tasked with a ridiculous mandate that they can't adhere to because politicians force them to serve their riding even though it's not even feasible to serve them. And this is why services has dropped so much in a lot of areas. Not to mention that YRT got stuck with Viva without any prior input into the planning, it was all created by rapidco and handed off to YRT. Thankfully the new VIVA routes planned for 2017 are actually being planned by YRT, but it's still a fundamental issue with the Region as a whole that is asking the agency to serve the largest geographical area that any municipal transit agency in the country serves and to do it with a 50/50 cost recovery. You just can't service some areas with public transit, nor should you. All this and I haven't even begun to mention the harsh realities that border TTC routes have on YRT routes in southern York Region, which is compounded even more when you realize these routes in sotuhern York region are the big revenue generators that help subsidize the other routes. It's truly a tragic situation where you have an agency that is very well equipped to serve the population but it's constantly being kept back due to factors outside it's control.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

YRT (or York Region/Vaughan/Markham/etc) likes to claim that x% of the population is within 500m or 1Km of a transit stop. Of course they make no mention of the service at that stop or only look at peak service. That is part of what is driving the desire to have transit all the way out into the 'burbs.

I think maybe they should define an urban and rural areas on the network. Urban areas should be well served by frequent transit, while rural would be served by express busses and maybe peak service.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Yonge extension to Richmond Hill will be a band aid and ridership on YRT will stagnate again after a year when it opens. They need to cut the fare back to $3.25.

First, I don't think it will stagnate because there will be huge development on Yonge, especially around the final two stations. Population growth is not stopping around there. I was just up north of there a week or two ago and was amazed at the high-rises going up north of 16 .Imagine when the subway is actually going in!

Second, it is reasonable to assume that by the time it opens (at least 10 years from now, right?) there will be some kind of new fare structure overall. I do agree the current fare is unsustainable.

Tell your councillor. The only reason the fare is so high is because those same councillors tell YRT they need to achieve a 50/50 farebox recovery ratio while also forcing YRT to service areas like Peferlaw and King City, which only serves 5-6 people per peak period.

That's all true but it's not fair to blame it entirely on politics. It's obviously a big challenge for YRT that they are effectively serving two municipalities: an urban suburbs strung out relatively close to the TO border and another, partly-rural region with a few nodes up north of the moraine. I don't envy them trying to balance that.

All this and I haven't even begun to mention the harsh realities that border TTC routes have on YRT routes in southern York Region, which is compounded even more when you realize these routes in sotuhern York region are the big revenue generators that help subsidize the other routes. It's truly a tragic situation where you have an agency that is very well equipped to serve the population but it's constantly being kept back due to factors outside it's control.

Yeah, it's a tricky, tricky situation. It's like they're a bunch of authors being asked to write the middle of a book with no role in writing either the beginning or end. I think overall they've done a good job and Viva is very ambitious but they're coming up to a point where they have to kind of smash through a wall - by getting more suburbanites on transit, restructuring fares at the provincial level etc. - or keep floundering in a tricky middle place and potentially backsliding because of things like high fares.

Really, everyone gets all in a tizzy when someone raises the idea of uploading the TTC but you only have to look at YRT to see what happens when you have a single region with multiple, almost competing transit services. Riders are not being well served.

Finally - a lot of this route-cuts + fare raising was going on under Rick Leary and a lot of people weren't happy about it. It will be interesting to see what happens now that he's gone or if they can get anyone in his league (for better or worse) again. Also, regional chair Bill Fisch isn't going to be back and so regional council will be fairly different come November. Interesting times lay ahead.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

A fare cut is not going to do anyone any good if they are still going to be waiting 47 minutes for their next bus.

Improvements in service quality go far, far further in terms of bringing in ridership (or in this case, stopping its decline) than decreases in the fare.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Then you cut service to King City, Keswick and Sharon.

Tell your councillor. The only reason the fare is so high is because those same councillors tell YRT they need to achieve a 50/50 farebox recovery ratio while also forcing YRT to service areas like Peferlaw and King City, which only serves 5-6 people per peak period. When you factor in the amount of gas required to fill up that bus as well as the deahead trips that are considerably long to the yard as well as the driver's wages you'll soon realize that YRT is being tasked with a ridiculous mandate that they can't adhere to because politicians force them to serve their riding even though it's not even feasible to serve them. And this is why services has dropped so much in a lot of areas. Not to mention that YRT got stuck with Viva without any prior input into the planning, it was all created by rapidco and handed off to YRT. Thankfully the new VIVA routes planned for 2017 are actually being planned by YRT, but it's still a fundamental issue with the Region as a whole that is asking the agency to serve the largest geographical area that any municipal transit agency in the country serves and to do it with a 50/50 cost recovery. You just can't service some areas with public transit, nor should you. All this and I haven't even begun to mention the harsh realities that border TTC routes have on YRT routes in southern York Region, which is compounded even more when you realize these routes in sotuhern York region are the big revenue generators that help subsidize the other routes. It's truly a tragic situation where you have an agency that is very well equipped to serve the population but it's constantly being kept back due to factors outside it's control.

Bingo. But of course there will be howls of contempt for such thinking from everyone north of major mac.

YRT (or York Region/Vaughan/Markham/etc) likes to claim that x% of the population is within 500m or 1Km of a transit stop. Of course they make no mention of the service at that stop or only look at peak service. That is part of what is driving the desire to have transit all the way out into the 'burbs.

I think maybe they should define an urban and rural areas on the network. Urban areas should be well served by frequent transit, while rural would be served by express busses and maybe peak service.

Agreed.

First, I don't think it will stagnate because there will be huge development on Yonge, especially around the final two stations. Population growth is not stopping around there. I was just up north of there a week or two ago and was amazed at the high-rises going up north of 16 .Imagine when the subway is actually going in!

Second, it is reasonable to assume that by the time it opens (at least 10 years from now, right?) there will be some kind of new fare structure overall. I do agree the current fare is unsustainable.

The majority of people will still drive to RHC especially if the fare is 4.25 or more. That will cause stagnation. The challenge is to get more people to use transit. Right now YRT is about to fail.

That's all true but it's not fair to blame it entirely on politics. It's obviously a big challenge for YRT that they are effectively serving two municipalities: an urban suburbs strung out relatively close to the TO border and another, partly-rural region with a few nodes up north of the moraine. I don't envy them trying to balance that.



Yeah, it's a tricky, tricky situation. It's like they're a bunch of authors being asked to write the middle of a book with no role in writing either the beginning or end. I think overall they've done a good job and Viva is very ambitious but they're coming up to a point where they have to kind of smash through a wall - by getting more suburbanites on transit, restructuring fares at the provincial level etc. - or keep floundering in a tricky middle place and potentially backsliding because of things like high fares.

Really, everyone gets all in a tizzy when someone raises the idea of uploading the TTC but you only have to look at YRT to see what happens when you have a single region with multiple, almost competing transit services. Riders are not being well served.

Finally - a lot of this route-cuts + fare raising was going on under Rick Leary and a lot of people weren't happy about it. It will be interesting to see what happens now that he's gone or if they can get anyone in his league (for better or worse) again. Also, regional chair Bill Fisch isn't going to be back and so regional council will be fairly different come November. Interesting times lay ahead.

I agree and look what I have said before. But surburban Canadians are used to a much higher quality transit then their american counterparts. Equivalents to King City in the Chicago or NYC suburbs have no service. Like a said everything north of major mac out Newmarket/Aurora should have been cut but we'll see.

 

[smallspy]

That's all true but it's not fair to blame it entirely on politics. It's obviously a big challenge for YRT that they are effectively serving two municipalities: an urban suburbs strung out relatively close to the TO border and another, partly-rural region with a few nodes up north of the moraine. I don't envy them trying to balance that.

More than just some of the problem is political. If the Region said tomorrow "we want to increase all services to run at least every 20 minutes, here's $5 million to do it", they could. But they choose not to, and instead focus on this bogus 50% farebox recovery ratio dream that they have.

Of course, the fact that YRT is an extremely top-heavy organization doesn't help either. There is more organizational inertia there than there is at the TTC.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

More than just some of the problem is political. If the Region said tomorrow "we want to increase all services to run at least every 20 minutes, here's $5 million to do it", they could. But they choose not to, and instead focus on this bogus 50% farebox recovery ratio dream that they have.

Of course, the fact that YRT is an extremely top-heavy organization doesn't help either. There is more organizational inertia there than there is at the TTC.

I don't know if anyone's got more organizational inertia than TTC.

Any government has political choices to make and there's no Q that regional council serves as a balance between the southern 3 municipalities and the northern 6. So, perhaps the N6 get some services that are expensive or "unfair," much the same way Canada gives some special treatment to Quebec.

But your example is really unfair. York Region's debt and taxes are way higher than Toronto's. Imagine what TTC could do if Toronto passed something as insane as a 3% tax increase! It would be a whole different city. At 4.5%, you could probably return TTC to something of its former glory, but then Torontoinans would be paying taxes that are at least somewhere in the vicinity of what people in Markham, Vaughan and Mississauga pay every year. So while the 905 gets stretched to the limit, Toronto has hissy fits and immature discussions over 1.75% and a mayor claiming he's improving transit while cutting it.

So, YRT could spend more money to improve service but coming from Toronto, that's really one of those glass-houses-stone-throwing things, isn't it?

It's also interesting to read various discussions of recovery rations. Some people seem to think that Toronto is GOOD because it's only 20/80, or whatever, while other systems have the reverse. Personally, I see nothing much good about the TTC being so heavily reliant on the fare box, to the point where they can hardly do anything at all. I don't see 50/50 as a bad goal, necessarily. We should acknowledge there are chicken/egg issues with creating transit culture in the suburbs and they are amplified in York Region, as previously discussed, because it has to serve a rural north and compete with the TTC in the south. Clearly they've taken some steps back in the past few years but overall it seems to me they've been trying as hard as anyone else has.

The fare increases are clearly counter-productive; I'm happy I'm not the one trying to run the system and please everyone.

 

[nfitz]

Imagine what TTC could do if Toronto passed something as insane as a 3% tax increase!

How is that much difference than the 2.71% increase that they approved for 2014?

With inflation near 2%, and population growth near 1%, a 3% increase isn't giving you much more than status quo.