York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[taal]

hmm I'm wrong about what exactly?

From the metrolink plan when is Steeles west LRT supose to be going through? I thought it wasn't for a long while if it was even in the planning?

Regarding my other comments, so you're arguing there is enough density on Jane or Don Mills up to Major Mac, to support an LRT?

The argument that traffic is bad so let's built an LRT doesn't cut it ... the traffic is bad on so many routes on the GTA. Why not build LRT's by priority.

One thing I'll conceed is the plan may call for simple an extention of a transit detidcated lane, but an LRT/street car? For heaven sakes why?, why not just a bus in a bus lane?

 

[taal]

I swear we only see this background planning in the GTA. Sure tons of US cities build LRTs on usage levels that are almost laughable ... but! At the very least I'm sure they pick the whatever their busiest routes are.

Why are we overkilling so many of these solututions when it's not neccassry. Why can't we meet the existing need before we attempt to prompote growth by providing transit at levels well beyond what is needed.

 

[xtremesniper]

The ridership North of Steeles on both these routes is so insignificant that it's clearly not even remotely advantageous to do this. But anyway that's fine ... it can't hurt of course.

*buzzer sound* Wrooonng.

As TJ already mentioned, but you obviously didn't understand, it's not about the residential density north of Steeles on Leslie, it's about the fact that they are proposing that the LRT go to Beaver Creek, which is a very large commercial business area that really does get overly crowded during rush hour. And guess where all the people go once they leave work from that area? The 404 south.

There is no less reason to extend the LRT north of Steeles than there is anywhere north of the 401. It's all residential suburban area with little density down there. But once you get north of the 407, it's all industrial/commercial buildings with multiple conference halls, many hotels, and almost no residential area all the way until 16th Ave. Heck, there's even AMD Canada (former ATI) headquarters right on that line, as well as a high school (St. Roberts) that has a membership that basically consists of people who have to either take the bus or get a ride because of the lack of residential area near the school.

So, really, you are pretty wrong in that respect.

 

[doady]

25D and 35D north of Steeles only have 1,254 and 1,586 boardings per weekday, respectively. IMO, that is not high enough to justify LRT.

 

[xtremesniper]

25D and 35D north of Steeles only have 1,254 and 1,586 boardings per weekday, respectively. IMO, that is not high enough to justify LRT.

That's the wrong way to go about it. It's not only about current ridership, it's about potential ridership. There are a lot of people who use their cars to get places right now because the transit infrastructure that would best support their needs is not currently in place.

I tell you, once a physical track is put in place, along with a fairly frequent train servicing those tracks, the ridership will not remain the same.

 

[RedRocket191]

I agree. If we go by current ridership, then would there be any corridors that warrant upgrading from local bus?

 

[doady]

That's the wrong way to go about it. It's not only about current ridership, it's about potential ridership. There are a lot of people who use their cars to get places right now because the transit infrastructure that would best support their needs is not currently in place.

A lot of people??? Neither Don Mills nor Jane are dense corridors. Not much potential for people to use transit when there are not many people to begin with.

VIVA was planned without regard for current ridership as well, and look what happened. Service has to be cut back a lot since the buses were empty.

If the a route currently cannot support even a decent local bus service, at a reasonable frequencies, what makes you think that it could support an LRT line?

The fact is, the transit mode split throughout Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, Richmond Hill, and Brampton is very similar (around 6%). And so it seems to me that the current ridership of a bus route is not much different form the potential ridership of an LRT line, and therefore the current ridership numbers can tell us which are best corridors for rapid transit, at least when comparing 905 routes.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A lot of people??? Neither Don Mills nor Jane are dense corridors. Not much potential for people to use transit when there are not many people to begin with.

If Beaver Creek and Vaughan Mills/Wonderland aren't a lot of people, what is?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

This is a matter of perspective. If YRT had proposed an LRT from Steeles to Hwy 7 on Leslie, they would have been mocked. What's absurd is that TTC would propose their line and just end it at Steeles rather than saying, "You guys wanna get in on this?"

The idea that they are "piggybacking" really shows the sort of attitude Metrolinx is trying to eliminate - if you want a REGIONAL system you shouldn't be designing your own little piece to serve your own taxpayers with no regard for what's on the other side of (in this case) Steeles. Extending the Don Mills LRT is basically a no-brainer.

And Taal, you're way off, I think. There's already a huge re-development proposal for the mall at Steeles (3,000 residents, give or take) and the point isn't the residential density north of there -it's the huge employment sector at Beaver Creek. If you've driven there at rush hour, you can only dream what difference rapid transit could make.

As for the subway, that's also a bit backwards. The plans for Viva were to make Phase II BRT with the hope of one day converting to LRT or subway. When the subway plan came out, they naturally jumped at it - it's precisely why citizens got upset saying, "don't dig up yonge st for bus lanes is a subway is likely to go in soon anyway." On the Spadina side, it's York Region's involvement that made the York U extension viable, not the other way around.

Are you saying that the York U extension happened 'because' York region got behind it, and that VCC was a viable destination for a subway? Or that the subway happened because York region and Sobrara got behind it as a political tool?

I seriously doubt that YRT would have been mocked had they proposed something along the lines of what is now being proposed on Jane and Don Mills before the TTC came along with Transit City. I mean VIVA was generally well recieved when it was proposed. Rather then building that ridiculous VIVA Green line, why didn't they run it up Don Mills to begin with?

Tell me, what difference would it have made had YRT let the York extension terminate at Steeles West and run a VIVA BRT route north on Jane? Did it take Transit city for YRT to come to the realization about that route?

As for the Yonge NIMBY's complaining about the the VIVA BRT ROW. The subway won't be complete for years. Why not build the BRT ROW now and benefit the riders today? By that logic the TTC should not even bother building the Downsview to York U busway since the subway is coming.

 

[taal]

To be honest I have no problem with any of these extensions.

And regarding the "You're wrong Taal" I'm not, I was talking about current ridership and they're even lower then I thought (looking at the figures above). Potential ridership is nice buzz word politicions like to use ... but sure it exists.

Anyway ... like I said, I'd have no problem if there weren't other routes which justified the spending of money as the CURRENT ridership demands it.

My point is ... why can we not simply build a bus only lane and use buses, why then need for expensive LRT!!!!!! ....

Take a bus on a dedicated lane for 5 years see if you can break the 10,000 daily ridership figure ... which is a joke anyway and doesn't demand an LRT. Then we'll talk.

Take part of the money you would otherwise and build the dedicated bus lane but give the rest to way more important projects such as the DRL ... to name just one.

If this money is comming from York Region alone! which I doubt ... then by all means build LRT's to your hearts content.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Doady - you keep missing the point. the new planning "school of thought" is get transit in before development or people will buy 2 cars and that's it. There IS density coming to Don Mills and Steeles and there's already a huge job node at Leslie/7. You can take a lot of 404 trips off the road by going up there and it makes no more sense to stop at Steeles than at Cummer, Van Horne, or any other random street north of Sheppard.

Similarly, Jane is set to be redeveloped as a downtown core and there's already a decent job node there too.
Tens of thousands of new residents in the next decade or two.
As Scarberian said, I'm not sure what else counts as "a lot of people" to you.
Or we can just scrap these LRTs and subways and build another Mississauga if that makes everyone happy...

Are you saying that the York U extension happened 'because' York region got behind it, and that VCC was a viable destination for a subway? Or that the subway happened because York region and Sobrara got behind it as a political tool?

The two are not mutually exclusive. Personally I think the Sorbara stuff is exaggerated. York Region/Vaughan have long eyed that area right across from York as a downtown and now it's provincial law. It is very much a viable destination - and only became moreso with Places to Grow etc - and I think the idea of extending beyond Toronto (beyond being a natural thing to do, since Steeles is abitrary) made the whole project more palletable to the upper levels of government. The province, in particular, could hardly designate it a major growth node and then stop a subway 5 km away - especially with York Region putting up the money.

Tell me, what difference would it have made had YRT let the York extension terminate at Steeles West and run a VIVA BRT route north on Jane? Did it take Transit city for YRT to come to the realization about that route?

That's a totally academic question. These projects are always part planning, part political lobbying. Vaughan has pushed hard for that extension for a long time.
They might have been happy with an LRT as they weren't being overly ambitious. They were literally holding a regional council meeting to approve expropriations for bus lanes the week Move2020 came out. It's not that they didn't want a subway on Yonge but they weren't looking that far ahead, I'm saying.

Your point about the NIMBY's misses the point. It will take a couple of years to build the BRT lanes so by the time they're done (if not before) it will be time to dig the subway. The EA will be done in March. All you're doing is adding a couple of years of construction at this point. If the subway CONSTRUCTION (as opposed to opening) was 10 years off, that would be a different matter.

The difference with the Downsview busway should be obvious; it doesn't entail construction on Yonge Street.

 

[smuncky]

just got this in the mail.

Join us at one of our final open houses and interactive public meetings, focusing on the proposed:

Highway 7 rapidway [Yonge Street to Kennedy Road]
Yonge subway extension [Finch Avenue to Highway 7]

The Highway 7 rapidway will provide Viva vehicles their own lanes to move past congested traffic and connect to the proposed Yonge subway extension at Richmond Hill Centre.

The subway extension, led by York Region, is being studied in cooperation with the City of Toronto and TTC. At these final public meetings, we will discuss the final alignment, construction methods, station layouts and more.

These are the final public meetings in Toronto and York Region under the formal transit project assessment process for the Yonge subway extension.

York Region meeting
Wednesday, November 26th
Highway 7 rapidway
open house 5-7 pm

Yonge subway extension
open house 5-7 pm
presentation 7-9 pm

Premiere Ballroom
and Convention Centre
9019 Leslie Street
Richmond Hill, ON L4B 4A3

Toronto meeting
Wednesday, December 3rd
Yonge subway extension
open house 5-7 pm
presentation 7-9 pm

Mitchell Field Community Centre
89 Church Avenue
North York, ON M2N 6C9

 

[taal]

I'll see if I can make it out to the Toronto meeting ... seeing how I live 30 seconds away : - ) (across the street)

 

[xtremesniper]

I missed the North York meeting last week so I'm definitely making it to the Hwy 7 / Yonge Street combo meeting for sure.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Similarly, Jane is set to be redeveloped as a downtown core and there's already a decent job node there too.
Tens of thousands of new residents in the next decade or two.
As Scarberian said, I'm not sure what else counts as "a lot of people" to you.
Or we can just scrap these LRTs and subways and build another Mississauga if that makes everyone happy...

The job node at Jane and 7 is relativlely dispersed, and that's part of the problem with putting a subway there. There isn't a central job core with numerous jobs within a 10 minute walking distance from the proposed location of the VCC station like there is downtown or even in MCC (for all that's wrong with it, they are intensifying). Yes there is a plan for a mini-downtown at this location but as yet all we have seen is planning and no action. In fact I can show you proposals for modest development in the VCC area that are already facing the typical NIMBY responses such as sightlines, shadowing, intensification (oh my!). Vaughan had an opportunity to be a torch bearer to redevelopment of this area by builing it's new civic centre there, instead they chose to redevelop the current site. So pardon me if I'm a little suspicious about the potential to turn VCC into a mini downtown with 15 - 30 story buildings clustered around the station.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Personally I think the Sorbara stuff is exaggerated. York Region/Vaughan have long eyed that area right across from York as a downtown and now it's provincial law. It is very much a viable destination - and only became moreso with Places to Grow etc - and I think the idea of extending beyond Toronto (beyond being a natural thing to do, since Steeles is abitrary) made the whole project more palletable to the upper levels of government. The province, in particular, could hardly designate it a major growth node and then stop a subway 5 km away - especially with York Region putting up the money.

A matter of opinion really. There are some red flags that concern me that's all. IIRC Sobrara's family own's most of the land surrounding the VCC and stands to make big gains in selling/redeveloping it with the subway there.

Why not stop it at Steeles? Aside from the arbitrary border argument? YRT's own ridership projection showed that the extension past Steeles would underperform even the Sheppard line. Why can't the Province or Toronto or the TTC stand up and say, hey wait a minute this is not a good transit decision look at the numbers.

I don't like this "well xyz is only so many km away from this station" habit that we are getting into. Right now VCC is roughly 5 km away from the Vaughan Mills Mall/Canada's Wonderland centre, so let's expand to there. Nobelton is only a few more kms past that let's go there. And Bolton a few more kms west of Nobelton, Subway to Bolton! And let's forget about that GO Bolton business while we're at it.

That's a totally academic question. These projects are always part planning, part political lobbying. Vaughan has pushed hard for that extension for a long time.
They might have been happy with an LRT as they weren't being overly ambitious. They were literally holding a regional council meeting to approve expropriations for bus lanes the week Move2020 came out. It's not that they didn't want a subway on Yonge but they weren't looking that far ahead, I'm saying.

Right Vaughan has been lobbying for almost 10 years to get a subway. But they never looked at any interm solution or intermediate step. It's too much of a no brainer for me to look at VIVA Orange and Purple and think that riders would have been better served if Purple were to run from Martin Grove and Orange aligned from Vaughan Mills to Downsview. I can't shake the feeling that they didn't look at this solution because they didn't want to show that this would be a better idea than a subway. They had one idea and were going to manipulate all the studies to skew to that one idea. But now that the Jane LRT is in planning suddenly YRT wants it as well? Do you honestly think that the Jane/7 area is actually going to support both and LRT and a subway? Not me.

Interestingly enough Vaughan has also been pushing for an extension to the 427 for some time now, and surprise surprise. Rather than wait for the province to get on board they just went ahead (with provincial approval) and built a short municipal extension of the highway. Amazing that this city can actually do things on it's own!

Your point about the NIMBY's misses the point. It will take a couple of years to build the BRT lanes so by the time they're done (if not before) it will be time to dig the subway. The EA will be done in March. All you're doing is adding a couple of years of construction at this point. If the subway CONSTRUCTION (as opposed to opening) was 10 years off, that would be a different matter.

The difference with the Downsview busway should be obvious; it doesn't entail construction on Yonge Street.

Point taken.