doady
Senior Member
What percentage of people in York Region work near a subway station? Unless it is very high, I doubt double-fare evaders represent a large part of the Steeles buses' ridership.
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York Region Transit: Viva service thread
- Thread starter ShonTron
- Start date
taal
Senior Member
Thank you .....
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Steeles' ridership drop would probably be more than 10% not just by removing the double fare (letting people take routes like the Denison bus) but once all the north/south routes seamlessly and farelessly cross Steeles.
It doesn't matter what percentage works near a subway station because those that do will take transit in much higher numbers. Even if we're talking about just 1% of York Region, that's enough thousand people to really boost Steeles ridership, particularly since those in York Region that do work along the subway are more likely to live within a long walk or a short drive of Steeles.
Dont' forget that Finch station is also a convenient gateway to most of the city's universities and colleges and Steeles buses tend to have noticeable crowds of young people at all times of day.
It doesn't matter what percentage works near a subway station because those that do will take transit in much higher numbers. Even if we're talking about just 1% of York Region, that's enough thousand people to really boost Steeles ridership, particularly since those in York Region that do work along the subway are more likely to live within a long walk or a short drive of Steeles.
Dont' forget that Finch station is also a convenient gateway to most of the city's universities and colleges and Steeles buses tend to have noticeable crowds of young people at all times of day.
xtremesniper
Active Member
I'm a little late to the party, but I just wanted to make a comment on something from a few pages back.
The Plan09 specifies that Viva Purple frequency will be decreased? That's absurd.
I've always wondered why the YRT never takes students seriously for their services. It's as if they feel that they can cram as many of us into a bus like a can of sardines as possible and they think nobody will complain.
I've been taking the Purple from Richmond Hill Centre for the past few months and I was getting fed up with the lackluster frequency times (upwards of 15 minutes, without a sight of any bus that had just pulled away), and packed buses that would show up. Try shoving 30+ people waiting at RHC into an already packed bus. It's pathetic.
Countless people would always be left behind at the stop, only to have to wait another 15 minutes for the next packed bus to come around. In the mean time, even more riders would be dumped onto the platform by the Blue line.
I eventually complained to YRT about this, and now they have buses waiting on standby to turn into RHC Shuttle buses to York University and back. If it were true that Purple's user demand was not enough to justify the current frequency levels, then I am at a loss for words. I was thinking for sure that they would have to increase frequency to accommodate the sheer number of students trying to get to and from York U.
And to put salt on the wound, they're raising fares? Come on. They already have a big problem with free riders who don't validate any tickets before boarding simply because of the high fares. Do they honestly think that riding the YRT is worth more than what TTC users pay to ride? The TTC can get you almost anywhere in the city that you want. It's a whole different level of service.
And as a side note about those TVs in the Viva buses; yes, they provided useless information, and yes they had font sizes far too small for anyone past the first 2-3 meters to read... But they spent all that money installing them, and they promised users free WiFi would come into play more than 2 years ago. Maybe that would justify the raising fare costs, but they've cut out a service that was up and running before (instead of just fixing what was wrong with it) and they've completely ignored the promise they made to riders years ago.
I'm not happy about this rise in costs. We're getting nothing back in return to justify these costs.
The Plan09 specifies that Viva Purple frequency will be decreased? That's absurd.
I've always wondered why the YRT never takes students seriously for their services. It's as if they feel that they can cram as many of us into a bus like a can of sardines as possible and they think nobody will complain.
I've been taking the Purple from Richmond Hill Centre for the past few months and I was getting fed up with the lackluster frequency times (upwards of 15 minutes, without a sight of any bus that had just pulled away), and packed buses that would show up. Try shoving 30+ people waiting at RHC into an already packed bus. It's pathetic.
Countless people would always be left behind at the stop, only to have to wait another 15 minutes for the next packed bus to come around. In the mean time, even more riders would be dumped onto the platform by the Blue line.
I eventually complained to YRT about this, and now they have buses waiting on standby to turn into RHC Shuttle buses to York University and back. If it were true that Purple's user demand was not enough to justify the current frequency levels, then I am at a loss for words. I was thinking for sure that they would have to increase frequency to accommodate the sheer number of students trying to get to and from York U.
And to put salt on the wound, they're raising fares? Come on. They already have a big problem with free riders who don't validate any tickets before boarding simply because of the high fares. Do they honestly think that riding the YRT is worth more than what TTC users pay to ride? The TTC can get you almost anywhere in the city that you want. It's a whole different level of service.
And as a side note about those TVs in the Viva buses; yes, they provided useless information, and yes they had font sizes far too small for anyone past the first 2-3 meters to read... But they spent all that money installing them, and they promised users free WiFi would come into play more than 2 years ago. Maybe that would justify the raising fare costs, but they've cut out a service that was up and running before (instead of just fixing what was wrong with it) and they've completely ignored the promise they made to riders years ago.
I'm not happy about this rise in costs. We're getting nothing back in return to justify these costs.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Are you sure they said that? I was looking at the plan and I saw they're extending it west and ADDING service during off-peak to address overcrowding. They're also trying to go past midnight. They're investigating whether they can go up to running every 8.5 minutes at peak.
I'm amused how my simple guess about Steeles ridership touched off such a lively debate.
Anecdotally, I took the 53 for many years and think a large percentage of riders are from the 905 side.
I wonder if YRT or TTC have done any studies of this? I'm sure TTC could care less as long as they get the fares.
I grew up on the 416 side and now live near Clark Ave and the absurdity of the dividing line has ALWAYS bugged me. I remember, during high school, friends at Thornlea having to trek down to Davisville for student cards while the photog came to my school, practically right on Steeles.
I remember finding out empty YRT buses were prohibited from picking up people waiting for TTC buses en route to Finch Station.
When I go south on transit I never take Viva and always either walk to Steeles or drive to Finch. That would change if the fare did; not just because of the money but because of the unfairness of it. One fare from Clark to Steeles, another to take me from Steeles to downtown?
You want to see why we need an integrated fare? Why we need a regional transit authority? Look at Steeles Avenue. It's a testimony to TTC pigheadedness and territoriality.
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taal
Senior Member
You know the same applies to us living in Toronto wanting to travel anywhere in York region .................... which is quite a lot of people these days.
Well unless you can manage to get to Finch station or a Viva bus without transit ... and that's only possible for a few.
So that situation is absurd both ways thank you.
I can't tell you the # of days I've had to pay double fair on Warden North, it isn't any fun.
Well unless you can manage to get to Finch station or a Viva bus without transit ... and that's only possible for a few.
So that situation is absurd both ways thank you.
I can't tell you the # of days I've had to pay double fair on Warden North, it isn't any fun.
xtremesniper
Active Member
Hmm, well somebody noted that there was a decrease and I had read that report a few months ago so to be honest I didn't remember and I didn't take a second look.
Hmm, are you sure about that? I have taken the Viva from Richmond Hill all the way to Finch station, and from Finch station all the way back up north and I have never paid double fare. You don't pay double for crossing Steeles on the Viva. Where they get you to pay the second fare is once you board a TTC operated service at Finch station.
taal
Senior Member
Yes ... so if your destination is Finch then your happy.
But in his case I'm sure he had to either take the subway or a TTC bus so crossing steeles and then taking a bus or driving to Finch avoids the double fair.
I agree it's silly and both systems would benefit from seeing it removed - but it really does have an impact both ways. A lot of my friends who work around Hi-way 7 / Lesile / Warden refuse to take transit because of the excessive cost of paying for the subway and YRT. I'm sure there's more of that in the other direction.
But in his case I'm sure he had to either take the subway or a TTC bus so crossing steeles and then taking a bus or driving to Finch avoids the double fair.
I agree it's silly and both systems would benefit from seeing it removed - but it really does have an impact both ways. A lot of my friends who work around Hi-way 7 / Lesile / Warden refuse to take transit because of the excessive cost of paying for the subway and YRT. I'm sure there's more of that in the other direction.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Right on both counts - it's not the crossing Steeles, it's the paying full fare take one transit system a few minutes to get to the other. I don't know what might be fair in a pre-Presto system... perhaps full Viva fare and then only half for TTC - but the two full fares is infuriating.
And, yeah, I'm sure as more jobs open north of Steeles the problem becomes increasingly large the other way. I imagine the TTC doesn't much care, especially given their resistance to Presto. It's a few years, I guess, but change seems to be coming...
taal
Senior Member
For the TTC I'm not sure there resistance stems out of a political regime insistent on keeping things the way they are. But it can probably be attributed to the very large up front capital cost. Moreover they have NO money ... and they are spending whatever the have now on a lot of projects, whoops i forgot we're not allowed to give them credit for anything they do : - )
A lot of the short term projects, new subways / street cars is also coming from that very deliuted budget.
I'll tell you another problem and a big one at that ... you hit it on the nail as well. This is going to be VERY difficult if the entire region isn't amalamted under one gaint transit athrority that takes care of everything particulary the funding.
Let's think about if for a second ... how would such a system work - the only fair solututation that may be expected by all sides is a pay by distance scheme ... morever the PAY goes to whatever transit authority the distance you covered falls under. So if you're comming from.
Anything else would be so very hard to implement, who gets the bulk of the funds as you cross Steeles ? does it depend which way your going .
Fare zones in another option but even that will be very hard if all the agencies remain separate
A lot of the short term projects, new subways / street cars is also coming from that very deliuted budget.
I'll tell you another problem and a big one at that ... you hit it on the nail as well. This is going to be VERY difficult if the entire region isn't amalamted under one gaint transit athrority that takes care of everything particulary the funding.
Let's think about if for a second ... how would such a system work - the only fair solututation that may be expected by all sides is a pay by distance scheme ... morever the PAY goes to whatever transit authority the distance you covered falls under. So if you're comming from.
Anything else would be so very hard to implement, who gets the bulk of the funds as you cross Steeles ? does it depend which way your going .
Fare zones in another option but even that will be very hard if all the agencies remain separate
smuncky
Senior Member
the finished dismantling the bus shelter beside the platform for the 99 yonge south bus and were almost done the one beside the 91 bayview south bus. i'm assuming they'll be replacing them with the same kind they have on the other side servicing the GO bus riders.
also, there was work being done on platform 13, where the 5 clark bus. lots of work was being done cutting up the concrete there.
also, there was work being done on platform 13, where the 5 clark bus. lots of work was being done cutting up the concrete there.
xtremesniper
Active Member
On the contrary, if you were to join all the transit authorities in the GTA together, you'll end up with what happened when Toronto became a mega-city. Certain parts of the city will get adaquate coverage while others will get close to none, all the while the higher ups struggle to provide equal service to everywhere to satisfy the demand.
It would be hard, and it would probably result in a lackluster system. We need these smaller focused areas for the agencies to deal with because it becomes their specialty and they can improve transit in the areas that need it most because they know which areas need it most. Our transit systems are already covering huge areas to begin with (YRT and TTC equally cover a very large area of land).
Another problem would be the issue of strikes. At least right now when a union goes on strike, certain parts of the GTA still have their service. Imagine in all of the GTA was operated by one major union? We'd be doomed. The way YRT does it (4 contractors, divided by regions within the region) is probably the most ideal in order to reduce the impact of a strike on the general public.
It would be hard, and it would probably result in a lackluster system. We need these smaller focused areas for the agencies to deal with because it becomes their specialty and they can improve transit in the areas that need it most because they know which areas need it most. Our transit systems are already covering huge areas to begin with (YRT and TTC equally cover a very large area of land).
Another problem would be the issue of strikes. At least right now when a union goes on strike, certain parts of the GTA still have their service. Imagine in all of the GTA was operated by one major union? We'd be doomed. The way YRT does it (4 contractors, divided by regions within the region) is probably the most ideal in order to reduce the impact of a strike on the general public.
xtremesniper
Active Member
You know what's frustrating? They have been getting rid of a lot of green grass at bus stops all across York Region and replacing them with huge platforms that could easily fit two regular sized bus stop shelters side by side. Not only that, but they haven't actually installed a bus shelter at any of these locations yet. They've only been paving more bus stops. I saw them on Kennedy Road doing a bunch of them a few weeks ago.
When are they going to actually put a shelter? Winter is coming up fast, and I'd sure like something to make use of the massive area of concrete that they formed at my bus stop earlier this year.
taal
Senior Member
No no, I agree with you ... I wasn't stating that the amalgamation aproach would be better. It wouldn't be for the exact reasons you pointed out. Using the TTC as an example we're only starting to see a return to the service levels pre amalgamation. I was commenting that it will be hard to implement a scheme everyone can agree upon.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
If there is overcrowding on Purple then I think they need to consider using (or ordering more) some of the artics from Blue during peak periods. I know Blue is jammed even with the artics so they'd probably have to order more.
Further to my comment a while back. Purple (specifically from RHC to York) seems to be the only real success from VIVA at this point. Blue is really YRT's take over from GO's Yonge 'C' route, and as such I doubt there was much of an increase in ridership from one to the other. Orange is just getting by, however if they integrate with Acceleride the numbers should increase. There are still a large number of people taking the 77 route to Finch from Brampton. Pink could easily be run as a branch of purple and despite it's good ridership numbers I wonder what the boardings look like. Are there really a significant number of people taking Pink from the GO station to Finch? Or are these riders along the portion of the route shared with Purple who are taking Pink simply due to the convinience of not having to make the transfer to Blue at RHC? Green is on the verge of being cancelled due to poor ridership! So really only Purple seems to have generated new ridership and it's over crowded in the peak periods.
The idea to re-route Orange to serve Downsview to Vaughan Mills sounds like a no brainer to me (Extend Purple to Martin Grove to fill in the missing service). Yet YRT makes no comment on it? I wonder why? Might it be because doing so would prove that a subway to VCC is not needed?