Yonge Street Revitalization (Downtown Yonge BIA/City of Toronto)

[afransen]

Pedestrian zones should allow cycling, but cyclists need to yield to pedestrians. There is lots of precedence for this internationally, and there is even precedence for this in Canada (in Ottawa along the LRT). Cyclists should be able to use the space for access, but not as a primary through route (they'll need to go slowly).

Cyclists and pedestrians mix better than cars and cyclists or pedestrians.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would put a speed limit of 30 km/h, to allow Yonge Street to become a "shared" thoroughfare. Time for Yonge Street to be returned to the people, instead of the automobile.

From link.

 

[allengeorge]

Having looked at the YongeTO materials, a lot makes sense - except for the one-way driving between Elm/Edward, and Walton/Gerrard. The rationale given is that this would support delivery and ride-hailing. I'm not sure what's happening in those sections that ride-hailing/deliveries are more likely than the other pedestrian priority sections. Also, I don't think they'll be able to limit it to those two uses anyways, so I think that claim is just wishful thinking.

Can't people just ride-hail off those side streets? (I'm a little more sympathetic to the delivery issues; don't know how to solve that.)

 

[Towered]

Having looked at the YongeTO materials, a lot makes sense - except for the one-way driving between Elm/Edward, and Walton/Gerrard. The rationale given is that this would support delivery and ride-hailing. I'm not sure what's happening in those sections that ride-hailing/deliveries are more likely than the other pedestrian priority sections. Also, I don't think they'll be able to limit it to those two uses anyways, so I think that claim is just wishful thinking.

Can't people just ride-hail off those side streets? (I'm a little more sympathetic to the delivery issues; don't know how to solve that.)

I wish Elm between Bay and Yonge could be closed to car traffic. It's one of the few charming little streets in the area with historic buildings and would make a wonderful pedestrian space.

 

[JasonParis]

I wish Elm between Bay and Yonge could be closed to car traffic. It's one of the few charming little streets in the area with historic buildings and would make a wonderful pedestrian space.

Or at least until the Delta's driveway (although, that project is changing anyway).

 

[allengeorge]

Sitting in on the virtual meeting today, I'm starting to understand exactly why it's so hard to make changes to street design in the city. Lots of qs about driving; sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who feels that driving is a net negative on a city's feel/life.

Also, I've a lot of sympathy for the many concerns that the designers/transportation department have to juggle. For example:

• Access concerns for mobility-constrained users
• Concern about e-scooters, etc.
• People who're worried about space constraints given COVID
• People who really love driving (and believe that reducing driving will cause economic activity to crash - yes, I'm showing my bias)

Also, apparently the reason why there's a one-way section between Gerrard/Walton is because of a new development?

 

[TrickyRicky]

AllenGeorge, on driving: one of the points I like to bring up is that there is often a misconception around “driving” in terms of the real functioning of vehicle traffic in a given area.

Breaking it down into components there are different sources of vehicle traffic including: Through traffic, local traffic, logistic traffic, and servicing traffic.

If we say we don’t like cars or we want to reduce through traffic or encourage the local traffic mode share away from cars that’s fine; however, it’s not the whole picture and there are real world consequences.

As an example there’s a rare surface parking lot at Bay and Edward and I encourage anyone to go there on a weekday morning. Sometimes 75% of the vehicles are contractor service vehicles not commuters or local traffic

 

[allengeorge]

Breaking it down into components there are different sources of vehicle traffic including: Through traffic, local traffic, logistic traffic, and servicing traffic.

Agreed, and I want to be clear that I am sensitive to issues around deliveries/contractors. However that's not the concern that gets expressed in media or in some of these public consultations (through traffic, visitor parking) And it can be BIAs pushing these concerns as well, which is even more disappointing.

Specifically on the Yonge St. plan, it seems like the two 1-way blocks north of Dundas were chosen to allow car traffic specifically to support ride-hailing (it wasn't clear if it was ride-hailing only, or that combined with Wheel-Trans concerns). As disappointing as that is to me, I'd rather we get this proposal as opposed to the alternate ones (two-way traffic through Yonge, etc.) And I really want to see it succeed.

 

[ssiguy2]

The issue of deliveries, taxis, and wheeltrans was one of the reasons London went with a flex street instead of a pedestrian mall.
All deliveries are made in the morning and people don't shop or go to restaurants at 7 am. London's Dundas Place doubled the width of the sidewalks for more cafes and just impromptu sidewalk sales along with getting rid of the ugly overhead wires, brick pavement/sidewalks, edge between the street and the sidewalks, got rid of parking, and beautified the street. Over the last 20 years London has also offered downtown merchants financial assistance to get rid of ugly vinyl siding .and bring back the original and historic storefronts.

London wanted a street that still offered needed transportation options but can be closed down at any time for any reason in 5 minutes. This is what Yonge should be from Bloor to Union.

 

[ssiguy2]

If you want to see how Yonge street could be, there is a new thread about London and has some great pics of the new Dundas Place.

 

[ssiguy2]

Pedestrian zones should allow cycling, but cyclists need to yield to pedestrians. There is lots of precedence for this internationally, and there is even precedence for this in Canada (in Ottawa along the LRT). Cyclists should be able to use the space for access, but not as a primary through route (they'll need to go slowly).

Cyclists and pedestrians mix better than cars and cyclists or pedestrians.

The problem is cyclists never yield to pedestrians. How many times have you seen a stop sign where cyclists, when being able to cross the road, come to a complete stop? Never. They do the "L.A. stop" and carry on.

The whole point of bike lanes is to ensure the safety of the cyclists and to promote active transportation. The operative word there is "transportation". How can Yonge become a truly pedestrian friendly zone when the city still wants to maintain it as a transportation corridor? It also makes closing down the street for events much more difficult as the cyclists will demand their "corridor" being maintained.

This is why London went with a flex street and made sure that cyclists were not part of the equation and hence built protected bike lanes on adjacent streets instead. It is called Dundas "Place" because that's what the city wanted it to become. A "place" where people could go to and not a transportation corridor they can go thru.

This is typical of Toronto in never wanting to go bold. In their attempt to appease everyone, no one gets served well.

 

[afransen]

This is about norms. There are places in the world where pedestrians and cyclists mix, and cyclists generally yield. Ottawa does it in places, before you go complaining that we're not Europe. What is currently 'cycling' culture in Canada is eventually going to fade as cycling becomes mainstream. Currently there is still too much lycra and 'go fast' mindset. As more and more normal people just trying to get from A to B without getting super sweaty and dirty take to bikes, the norms on how you cycle shift.

Regarding stop signs, they are really a poor form of traffic control. Cars often roll through stops as well, when there is no obvious conflicting traffic.

 

[dahusbandofbath]

This thread consists of 71 pages of people saying "Yonge Street sucks" to one degree or another.
Get a grip!

I think the frustration many of us have with such "Debby-Downer" comments is that, while they may be rooted in history, they have the psychological effect of suggesting that Toronto sucks and nothing can ever change, which, of course, is nonsense. Say what you will about this town, it certainly DOES change! Surely, after seeing the positive changes on such streets as St George, Bloor and Queen's Quay, we can feel some justifiable optimism that Toronto streets ARE improving.

 

[ssiguy2]

Yonge is an incredibly vibrant and dynamic street, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

Yonges problem is that it is shockingly ugly and considering the amount of pedestrian traffic it gets, it is probably the most pedestrian unfriendly main street in the city. The sidewalks are thin, uneven, and the streets cape is unattractive. Seriously, name me the number of places you can sit outside and have a meal or just coffee on Yonge and then compare it to Queen, King, Church, College, Danforth, Yonge could be a real centre piece but the city just does not want to give up a single meter to the car. I think the entire street should be 100% pedestrian only from Bloor to King but I appreciate that is too wild for Toronto. Outside of that, the entire stretch from Dupont all the way to Union should be based upon London Dundas Place flex street.......................double the width of the sidewalks, get rid of all buses and bike lanes, create an attractive and welcoming street scape, and allow the street to be completely shut down at a moments notice. London can safely shut down it 4 block stretch in just 5 minutes.

Toronto doesnt need to reinvent the wheel, just look down the road a couple hundred km to see how it is done. What lacking in Toronto, which wasnt lacking in London, is the political will and willingness to clearly state that the cars are secondary to the needs of pedestrians.

 

[Northern Light]

Yonge is an incredibly vibrant and dynamic street, there is absolutely no doubt about that.

Yonges problem is that it is shockingly ugly and considering the amount of pedestrian traffic it gets, it is probably the most pedestrian unfriendly main street in the city. The sidewalks are thin, uneven, and the streets cape is unattractive. Seriously, name me the number of places you can sit outside and have a meal or just coffee on Yonge and then compare it to Queen, King, Church, College, Danforth, Yonge could be a real centre piece but the city just does not want to give up a single meter to the car. I think the entire street should be 100% pedestrian only from Bloor to King but I appreciate that is too wild for Toronto. Outside of that, the entire stretch from Dupont all the way to Union should be based upon London Dundas Place flex street.......................double the width of the sidewalks, get rid of all buses and bike lanes, create an attractive and welcoming street scape, and allow the street to be completely shut down at a moments notice. London can safely shut down it 4 block stretch in just 5 minutes.

Toronto doesnt need to reinvent the wheel, just look down the road a couple hundred km to see how it is done. What lacking in Toronto, which wasnt lacking in London, is the political will and willingness to clearly state that the cars are secondary to the needs of pedestrians.

A much more pedestrian-friendly and attractive Yonge from College to Queen is en route.

The plans for Yonge in North York are public (the City staff and local councillor support removing one lane each way in favour of bike lanes and widened sidewalks.)

The City is likely to approve bike lanes on Yonge from Lawrence south to St. Clair, with the possibility of taking that further to either of Bloor or College.

Don't be too down on the City.

Our timid mayor stifled the plans for North York, which should have been done 2 years ago.

But City staff responded by delaying any work, hoping to get approval later.

In addition to the bike lanes; there will be considerable beautification of the sidewalks in the Yonge-St. Clair area in the not too distant future. (more and far better street trees, with proper planting conditions, wider sidewalks and upgraded paving).

There is every intention of reducing Yonge to 1-lane each way from well north of Lawrence to the Lake.

If the Mayor would just get out of the way; we'd get there a bit sooner.