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Why I support the TTC (sort of).

Swarley said:
Basically, outside of Asia, every major city has transit issues, and everyone likes to think that their transit provider is the worst.

People who say that the TTC is SO much worse than every major city (ie. Jaybee) really need some perspective though.
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The infrastructure is really nothing to be proud of. Even Montreal's subway system is set up better in terms of design. That silly"U" (Really, what's the distance between Younge and University?) that we have here in Toronto has to be the dumbest thing ever. It's not necessarily the delays that are the issue, it's the lack of planning regarding the subway routes.

I never said TTC was the worst...but it's deff not as wonderful as some say in this thread. Have you taken a look at the salaries at the TTC? LOL, if they spent less money on grossly overpaying their staff, they'd have enough money to do away with tokens and all the other archaic crap they currently have. I mean, we were using paper tickets what, 2 years ago?
 
JayBee said:
The infrastructure is really nothing to be proud of. Even Montreal's subway system is set up better in terms of design. That silly"U" (Really, what's the distance between Younge and University?) that we have here in Toronto has to be the dumbest thing ever.
Click to expand...
Some aspects of Montreal are designed better; some aren't.

Have you tried changing from the yellow line to the orange line at Berri-di-whatetever-it's-called-now? You have to walk a city block! And some of the stations are so deep it takes forever to get out of the station; Bonavanture comes to mind. This was done to keep the tunnels in bedrock and save money. Cheap perhaps, great design ... no. And what about changing from bus to Metro. Have you changed from bus to metro at Lionel-Groulx - a major station. Despite plenty of space for a bus loop they didn't build on, it's a long walk from where the buses pick up passengers to the door to the station. And even at other stations with bus loops, it's not arranged as efficiently as the TTC. And have you checked out the connection from Lucien-L'allier metro station to the AMT station? Pretty shoddy design. And speaking of unecessary loops ... have you seen what the Green Line does to get from Atwater station to Lionel-Groulx station? It goes so far west, it crosses under St. Catherines at Redfern. REDFERN!! It takes about 2.5 km to go 900 metres down the hill. Now that's bad design; firstly they never designed Atwater to continue south afterward, secondly they never rebuilt it so that it could be done easily, and thirdly if they were going that far west, they should have built a station at Redfern.

And then there are those rubber-tired subway trains. For starters they are much smaller than in Toronto; while trains are 9-cars long, there's are only 2.5-m wide and 17-m long compared to the 23-m long and 3.14-m wide cars here. So a 9-car train in Montreal has only got 88% of the capacity of a 6-car train in Toronto (this will drop to 80% if TTC adds the shorter 7th car to the new trains). Yet Bombardier's contract (now cancelled) to replace the trains have a pricetag of over $3.9 million a car; $35 million a train. Toronto's new 6-car trains are only $12.9 million each. With 70 new trains arriving, it will cost about $900 million compared to $2.5 billion at Montreal pricing. Sure, the Montreal trains look nice, and sound quieter ... but that's a huge design failure to create trains that are so expensive.

Not only are are trains bigger and cheaper; they also come more frequently. Perhaps if Montreal's system hadn't been so badly designed, they could afford to run it more frequently!
 
It's interesting to see a lot of great transit systems in the world are being brought down by their own huge overspending and expansion in the past decade.

In New York, the latest proposal to the MTA board is to raise a monthly unlimited Metrocard to $99/month, and cap the number of rides at 90. Someday the TTC may be a better system overall than the MTA just by holding steady.
 
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JayBee said:
The infrastructure is really nothing to be proud of. Even Montreal's subway system is set up better in terms of design. That silly"U" (Really, what's the distance between Younge and University?) that we have here in Toronto has to be the dumbest thing ever. It's not necessarily the delays that are the issue, it's the lack of planning regarding the subway routes.

I never said TTC was the worst...but it's deff not as wonderful as some say in this thread. Have you taken a look at the salaries at the TTC? LOL, if they spent less money on grossly overpaying their staff, they'd have enough money to do away with tokens and all the other archaic crap they currently have. I mean, we were using paper tickets what, 2 years ago?
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You, sir, are a navel gazer. Montreal also pays their drivers more than TTC does, and TTC still runs a much more reliable service.

And if I were you, I wouldn't complain about tokens, since you just recently learned about the token discount over cash.
 
The TTC is neither as horrible as its detractors say, nor as great as some dreamers too.
You absolutely have to be fair and recognize the financial constraints under which they operate; it's simply a joke.
That said, their actions of the last few years make me wonder what they would do if suddenly given a blank cheque.

Jonny5's last comment made me smile because I said something similar (but ironically) in the Presto thread.
Some people are applauding TTC for waiting, stalling and obstructing Presto because now they have this amazing technology. Apparently, for some, there is pride to be found in TTC being a "late adopter" but the reality is that the TTC has not been holding steady in many respects for several years and, quite clearly, has actually regressed in some areas.

For example, It's been obvious to most people who travel anywhere that the tokens and tickets should have been dispensed with years ago but TTC has stood by it, until the last week or so.
Similarly, at its core, Transit City is a great idea, but many of the specifics are very questionable.

Something fundamental needs to change in terms of upper-level funding, but there is no question in my mind the TTC needs people who are forward-thinking and looking at the big picture, and those people aren't there right now.
 
kettal said:
You, sir, are a navel gazer. Montreal also pays their drivers more than TTC does, and TTC still runs a much more reliable service.

And if I were you, I wouldn't complain about tokens, since you just recently learned about the token discount over cash.
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What gave you that idea? I've been taking the TTC for 20 years, I've always known of the "discounts". Stop it.
 
The reality is that Toronto doesn't take advantage of it's rail ROW which it could ie GO, builds tunnels in the burbs, and refuses to look at options like at grade, elevation, and trenched systems. This is one of the main reasons why the infrastructure gets no where. These are givens in the rest of the planet and heresy in Toronto.
 
:eek:
ssiguy2 said:
The reality is that Toronto doesn't take advantage of it's rail ROW which it could ie GO, builds tunnels in the burbs, and refuses to look at options like at grade, elevation, and trenched systems. This is one of the main reasons why the infrastructure gets no where. These are givens in the rest of the planet and heresy in Toronto.
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What do you mean? In the past subway and RT lines have been built in rail right-of-ways. All our GO lines are in existing rail ROWs and there are plans to add 2-3 more in the next decade. GO is planning to build a tunnel in the burbs to get to Square One. And TTC isn't looking at options like at grade???? We also have trenched and elevated sections.
 
CDL.TO said:
Oh, I wish! Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure he's referring to the cutting-and-covering of the GO line through Weston.
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Oh ... was he being negative or positive about this ... the English is so poor, it's hard to parse meaning ..

Though Metrolinx is planning the tunnel to Square One. It's on page 67 of The Big Move:
a direct Express Rail link between Mississauga City Centre and Union Station via Cooksville;
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Now, that's in their post-25 year plan ... so sometime after 2033 ...

And I guess it doesn't say tunnel ... but I can't see how else to bring heavy rail from Cooksville to Square One.
 
nfitz said:
Oh ... was he being negative or positive about this ... the English is so poor, it's hard to parse meaning ..

Though Metrolinx is planning the tunnel to Square One. It's on page 67 of The Big Move:


Now, that's in their post-25 year plan ... so sometime after 2033 ...

And I guess it doesn't say tunnel ... but I can't see how else to bring heavy rail from Cooksville to Square One.
Click to expand...

Looking at his comma placement again, you might be right. It's hard to tell. He's probably talking about the Spadina Extension, actually.

Quoting the post-25 year plan is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't put much weight in it since even just the 15-year plan seems pretty unlikely to be delivered exactly as promised.
 
CDL.TO said:
Quoting the post-25 year plan is a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't put much weight in it since even just the 15-year plan seems pretty unlikely to be delivered exactly as promised.
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True ... the Metrolinx 2010 plan is unlikely to be delivered ... in 2009 they were promising 30-minute off-peak service on the Lakeshore line in 2010. I'm sure it will be yet another broken McGuinty transit promise.
 
ssiguy2 said:
The reality is that Toronto doesn't take advantage of it's rail ROW which it could ie GO, builds tunnels in the burbs, and refuses to look at options like at grade, elevation, and trenched systems.
Click to expand...

Maybe you missed yesterday's post, but Toronto or the TTC do not own the rail ROWs. GO (provincial operation) owns some, the rest are by federally regulated national corporations.

Neither the TTC nor the City can just stand up and tell CN or CP that for the better of all, they are being muscled out of their own lines.
 
JayBee said:
The infrastructure is really nothing to be proud of. Even Montreal's subway system is set up better in terms of design. That silly"U" (Really, what's the distance between Younge and University?) that we have here in Toronto has to be the dumbest thing ever. It's not necessarily the delays that are the issue, it's the lack of planning regarding the subway routes.

I never said TTC was the worst...but it's deff not as wonderful as some say in this thread. Have you taken a look at the salaries at the TTC? LOL, if they spent less money on grossly overpaying their staff,
Click to expand...

Over paid? TTC salaries are similar to other big city transit workers like Montreal, Philly, NYC.
 
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